Page 3 | to think Of Mice and Men should not be cancelled?

Florenz · 2023-05-25T16:22:04+00:00

I read this on the BBC website today. Kids are upset because it contains the N word. I do not think it should be removed from the school curriculum. It's a classic work of literature, one of the few books we read at school that I genuinely enjoyed and read ahead of where we were in class because I wanted to find out what happened. We went to see the film with John Malkovich and Gary Sinise with school as well.

listsandbudgets · 25/05/2023 20:01

HollyGolightly4 · 25/05/2023 17:35

Michael Gove removed it from the GCSE curriculum in England in 2016. It is not being cancelled. There are different books to teach 🙄

Not very successfully. DD did her GCSEs last year and definitely did Of Mice and Men

There are words we'd all prefer not to see in literature but if all the books with those words are banned the curriculum may become somewhat narrow. It needs to be made clear these books are a product of their time and that there has been great societal change.

hoven · 25/05/2023 20:05

JohnPrescottsPyjamas · 25/05/2023 20:01

What about “A Handmaid’s Tale? It’s been an A Level text for years and yet it’s about women being forced into conceiving children by their male ‘owners’ Effectively about females being kept as sex slaves. Where is the sad student face over that one?

The whole point about studying literature is that sometimes it should be challenging and sometimes controversial. It’s also about the evolution of language and comparisons of social attitudes from the past. It should ignite passion and elicit response, negative or positive. It’s about learning how to put forward an eloquent argument for or against a particular author’s views and having free choice to express those opinions. If we keep sanitising literature, we are heading further down the totalitarian route of censorship.

Ok so let's use mein kampf next

MathsNervous · 25/05/2023 20:06

Loved that book. It should be kept in the syllabus for students. It was fitting and of its time. Are we to completely rewrite everything these days if it doesn't suit our agenda?

MathsNervous · 25/05/2023 20:10

TheFlis12345 · 25/05/2023 17:38

Yes it felt a bit Daily Fail sad face with her mum saying her daughter wouldn’t do English A level even though she is really good at it because of that one book, there are other options available!

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It's called cutting your nose off to spite your face. She could have easily chosen another novel and took it for A Level all the same. Storm in a tea cup.

Jaichangecentfoisdenom · 25/05/2023 20:11

JohnPrescottsPyjamas · 25/05/2023 20:01

What about “A Handmaid’s Tale? It’s been an A Level text for years and yet it’s about women being forced into conceiving children by their male ‘owners’ Effectively about females being kept as sex slaves. Where is the sad student face over that one?

The whole point about studying literature is that sometimes it should be challenging and sometimes controversial. It’s also about the evolution of language and comparisons of social attitudes from the past. It should ignite passion and elicit response, negative or positive. It’s about learning how to put forward an eloquent argument for or against a particular author’s views and having free choice to express those opinions. If we keep sanitising literature, we are heading further down the totalitarian route of censorship.

Yes.

ReadtheReviews · 25/05/2023 20:14

Love that book. It opens up brilliant discussions about the racism at the time the book is set. The book isn't racist, it portrays racism which is important and this is an important distinction.

Butitsnotfunnyisititsserious · 25/05/2023 20:14

JohnPrescottsPyjamas · 25/05/2023 20:01

What about “A Handmaid’s Tale? It’s been an A Level text for years and yet it’s about women being forced into conceiving children by their male ‘owners’ Effectively about females being kept as sex slaves. Where is the sad student face over that one?

The whole point about studying literature is that sometimes it should be challenging and sometimes controversial. It’s also about the evolution of language and comparisons of social attitudes from the past. It should ignite passion and elicit response, negative or positive. It’s about learning how to put forward an eloquent argument for or against a particular author’s views and having free choice to express those opinions. If we keep sanitising literature, we are heading further down the totalitarian route of censorship.

💯

bellocchild · 25/05/2023 20:16

Of Mice and Men may not be great literature, but it was easy to follow and it suited less able candidates very well. It helps to have some texts like this available.

Original poster

Florenz · 25/05/2023 20:19

HappiDaze · 25/05/2023 20:01

There are plenty of other books that can be used instead.

There's no place for it on the NC if it causes upset, which it very much does for some students

I'm sure having to read Shakespeare and Chaucer upsets some students, should they be banned too?

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JudgeJ · 25/05/2023 20:22

LadyKenya · 25/05/2023 17:44

Should children have to sit and listen to or discuss racist terms of abuse in order to study English Lit?

No they should not, or any other form of discrimination. But it is easy for someone who has not had something like that affect them, wax lyrical about how they loved the book etc, and do not want it cancelled, when that is not even what has happened.

But if carry that to its logical conclusion pupils whould not learn about slavery, the Civil Rights struggle and so on in History because there will be language which is now unacceptable. By sweeping things under the carpet, pretending they never existed we are stifling discussion.

TryingNotToFreak · 25/05/2023 20:23

ReadtheReviews · 25/05/2023 20:14

Love that book. It opens up brilliant discussions about the racism at the time the book is set. The book isn't racist, it portrays racism which is important and this is an important distinction.

Agreed. Important discussions about misogyny too.

dudsville · 25/05/2023 20:27

I really enjoy reading steinbeck. It's not because it resonates and agrees with me, but it shows me something from a different perspective that I'll never know. Of mice and men isn't my favourite but i do think it's amazing, and it's all pretty gruelling stuff - i recently re-read Grapes of Wrath, utterly heart breaking poetry. And for a mysoginist i thought he created an amazing character in Ma. Reminded me of Mother Courage. It's uncomfortable to me to read certain words, and I frequently wince at his in depth descriptions of suffering, but i really value him as a writer.

bobisbored · 25/05/2023 20:29

I think there are better texts to be studied. I'm not a fan. The kids at my school thought the use of the n word was outrageous!

ChekhovsMum · 25/05/2023 20:31

Literature needs to have characters who do and say very, very bad things. If they can’t, then literature can’t show us the world at its worst in order to make an argument that it should be better.
In a novel like ‘To Kill A Mockingbird’, set in 1930s Alabama, how can an author build a picture of Bob Ewell, the worst kind of racist and misogynist - a KKK member who has raped his own daughter and attempts to get a black man convicted for the crime - without having him say the ‘N’ word? The novel is vehemently anti-racist. The overall message should be the point.
If we’re going to worry about young people being influenced by what they hear in literature then we could always preface teaching with ‘This word was abhorrent then and it’s absolutely abhorrent now. The person who uses it in this novel is the worst person in the novel, and he gets stabbed at the end for a very good reason. You do not use it under any circumstances’. But the texts are not the problem.
If they are, then perhaps we need to get rid of ‘Macbeth’ in case teenagers start plotting to kill the King, because they’re too unsubtle to see that Shakespeare thinks it’s a bad idea.
Or maybe the Bible should go because it’s so antisemitic. That bit near the end when they crucify that poor Jewish guy…

Oaktree1233 · 25/05/2023 20:31

I can’t believe that no one has noticed or even mentioned the eugenics at the end of the novel. Lennie, the mentally challenged man is shot by his friend. The worst thing was that my son had to perform parts of that book for a drama performance - yet he is autistic. Lennie has many ASD traits so good to know that he gets shot! At the time, I found the whole text and my son having to perform an extract from it, quite distressing as did my son who wondered whether his life was pointless as he was not NT.

Curioushorse · 25/05/2023 20:34

Oh look. I'm a former Head of English and I removed it from study in my school. It has also been removed from study in my current school.

It is a great book. BUT, actually, when you've taught it ten times, and you realise you're spending as much time contextualising the misogyny and the racism as you are reading the book, it starts seeming like a good idea to dump it. Repeatedly saying the n-word makes the black kids uncomfortable- unsurprisingly. It reminds them of poor treatment and racism every single time- and that's aside from the issue that for some weaker kids, just mentioning the word in class legitimises it. I have books available where individual groups of kids are not singled out and reminded of abuse repeatedly. I'd just rather teach those.

(And in the current Andrew Tate legacy situation in schools I'd rather not deal with Curley's wife either)

ChekhovsMum · 25/05/2023 20:36

Are you joking? George shoots Lennie because Curly is coming to ‘shoot him in the guts’ for killing his wife by accident. George is Lennie’s friend and long-time companion, knows he doesn’t stand a chance against Curly’s cruelty, and shoots him as painlessly as possible to spare him the long, slow death Curly has planned.

Hadalifeonce · 25/05/2023 20:36

DD studied this book, she was appalled at the racism and abuse, but it was discussed in school and at home, it actually had a very positive affect on her attitude to casual racism and discrimination of any kind. So perhaps it is a good thing that books of this ilk are studied and discussed so people can understand how history, although of another time can still be relatable today and hopefully, alter some attitudes.

HollyGolightly4 · 25/05/2023 20:41

listsandbudgets · 25/05/2023 20:01

Not very successfully. DD did her GCSEs last year and definitely did Of Mice and Men

There are words we'd all prefer not to see in literature but if all the books with those words are banned the curriculum may become somewhat narrow. It needs to be made clear these books are a product of their time and that there has been great societal change.

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Does she go to an independent school @listsandbudgets ?

If so, that might be why- they are allowed to follow courses that have international literature.

State schools have to follow a course of study that includes a 'modern' prose/play text, but it must be written by a British author.

Neverknowinglysensible · 25/05/2023 20:51

tinytemper66 · 25/05/2023 19:33

Having taught this for the last 22 years, I wish it was removed from the WJEC GCSE spec.

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^This, this, this!

I’m not going to go into the merits, or not, of M&M but it’s been on the syllabus FAR too long. I’ve had students copying being inspired by their parent’s notes on the text. With the best will in the world, teaching can get stale after so long on the same book. I would definitely welcome something else.

Original poster

Florenz · 25/05/2023 20:53

How long has Shakespeare been on the syllabus for?

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NooNakedJacuzziness · 25/05/2023 20:58

ChekhovsMum · 25/05/2023 20:36

Are you joking? George shoots Lennie because Curly is coming to ‘shoot him in the guts’ for killing his wife by accident. George is Lennie’s friend and long-time companion, knows he doesn’t stand a chance against Curly’s cruelty, and shoots him as painlessly as possible to spare him the long, slow death Curly has planned.

Yes, this! Unexpectedly heartbreaking ending. We did this for GSCE and we had an amazing teacher who read it aloud to us, doing all the accents. I love Steinbeck's books

TooManyAnimals94 · 25/05/2023 21:01

hoven · 25/05/2023 20:05

Ok so let's use mein kampf next

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I've never read Mein Kampf but I've spoken to people who have and it's fairly turgid drivel so not suitable as a GCSE text. I'd have no issue with studying it as a piece of history though.

listsandbudgets · 25/05/2023 21:29

@HollyGolightly4 Yes she did, that does explain it. That does seem very restrictive, there are so many great things written in English but not by the English.

Do you know if there are similar constraints with A levels as well? (DD is at state 6th form now doing 3 x science and maths so not really my concern) I did English A Level many years ago and we did Cat on a Hot Tin roof (Tennessee Williams - American) and Heat and Dust by Ruth Prawer Jhabvala who was German born then lived in India and I'm sure there were others.

HappiDaze · 25/05/2023 21:29

Some PP are misguided here

Teenagers of black heritage ( I don't even know the correct polite PC terminology to use these days and for that I apologise) and their classmates become very very upset when the word 'N*r is used in the book.

They Do Not see it at all as a 'brilliant way' to discuss racism from the past

Teenagers these days do not like hearing the word or seeing it in print.

They find it extremely offensive when this book is in their classroom

I know this because I am a teacher and my DC happen to have had this book taught to them in school and their peers with black heritage were deeply offended when the N word was used.

It doesn't matter that it's in a well regarded Novel by a respected author.