Unfair comment to make yes or no

[Notlivinglife]

I work with this particular colleague fairly regularly (just 2 of us in the office) Personally I'm not a big fan but I try to be civil with her as difficult as it is for work sake. We have got on in the past on and off and have had quite good conversations about women's issues mainly menopause, coils etc. as we are both in that category so both affected. In the office one day working with her and it was just too hot, sweaty & stuffy for me but she insisted on keeping the office window closed. It was hot outside! I flipped out and told her how selfish she was for not even asking if I would like the window open even slightly!
Her comment back was "Well why don't you hang yourself out to dry". Fair or unfair?

58 and managed to not be a twat to other people at any stage.
Please let's not turn this into another "women are special because hormones" bandwagon.
There's enough of that going on in the sleb world.
There's a line that gets crossed. On one side there are reasonable adjustments and recognition, on the other there's "but I'm pregnant/menstruating/menopausalso I can behave like a twat/not do my job properly" (or even more ubiquitously "my toe itches, must be peri" )

Davina and co may think they've done women a favour. I'm not so sure.

Interesting though that you think a woman working is in an environment where paperclips need counting. @notsayingmuch . Maybe not as right on as you think eh?

Discuss your options like adults... say you find the office hot and would she prefer a window open or for you to get a fan, you can't really take all your clothes off when hot to be fair, she could wear a jumper if a bit cold

But both of you need to engage professionally to resolve minor (which this is) issues

@NowZeusHasLainWithLeda you make an interesting point there. I'm inclined to agree you there. The whole "I have hormones" etc isn't helpful to the feminist cause, in fact it puts feminism back decades.

Agree with others that you both sound rude. Perhaps because you're both menopausal? You sound as though you went from 0-100. From your post it sounds as though you didn't even say you were feeling hot so were going to open a window but immediately launched an attack. Either you've missed something out or you are incredibly aggressive.

I always hesitate to say it. It makes me uncomfortable to say it. But I think it needs to be said. The menopause needed to be talked about because women of menopausal age were largely forgotten. And some women suffer terribly (physically and mentally)
We now risk going so far in the other direction that similarly to back in the dark days, no company will touch a woman over the age of 40 because they'll be worried about her ability to do her job. Not because they're a shit company. But because we have effectively TOLD them that we're going to be incapable.

You've not given enough information about what was said about the window being closed in advance of your mini war if words to be able to answer your question.

You flipped out, she responded

Davina and co may think they've done women a favour. I'm not so sure.

I agree with this. I'm not yet at peri/menopause stage, but I'm actually dreading the fact that any mistake/absentmindedness/slightly warm day is going to have people around me thinking 'ooooh well, y'know, peri'. Like I'm some dumb mooing animal in thrall to my hormones.

All this endless focus on it feels invasive and reductive. Of course we want quiet understanding, access to healthcare if needed and to be able to understand what's going on with our bodies.

But all this shouting it from the rooftops feels like the removal of a layer of privacy and dignity. Endless 'vulnerability' isn't a good thing.

@NowZeusHasLainWithLeda absolutely! It will put employers (not just men) off employing women full stop because of "hormones" - periods/pregnancy/peri/menopause etc etc just makes us sound flakey and unreliable as we have so many "excuses" to throw at them that cannot be challenged because of sex discrimination.
We are going backwards.

It’s not actually advisable to have the window open when it’s hot inside. It allows the hot air in and heats up the environment. When it is hot the best thing to do is have the window coverings drawn and the window closed. That’ll reduce the indoor temp. (Used to be an office manager for an air con company).

YABU though, not on her to ask if you’d like the window open. If you don’t like someone being shitty to you don’t be shitty to them.

When it’s hot outside that should say.

'Flipping out' is never a good idea although I can appreciate it was driven by frustration. Was it not an option to move to another office? I'd have said, calmly, something like 'If we can't have the window open, I'm going to have to go somewhere else for a bit for some fresh air.'

No it doesn't.

Feminism is not about equality with men, we don't have to pretend we are a homogenous group who are the same as men, and we don't have to pretend we have the same needs as men. We are not just men with boobs and tubes who need to suppress our female biology to gain the respect of men or be treated as human. That is accepting patriarchy and trying to pretzel ourselves into that unaccommodating system that was set up by men and for the needs of men.

It is about equity.

It is inherently unfair on women to ignore the challenges that their biology presents. Periods, childbirth, menopause all have a huge impact on women's bodies and minds. Equity is saying, society recognises women face these challenges and accommodates them and does not consider the women facing those challenges to be less than, simply as a result of a biological reality they cannot change.

Sweeping the very real effects (changes in mood etc) of the massive hormonal impact of women's life events like menopause under the carpet is simply another form of patriarchy. It plays on the old trope that women are hysterical and over emotional by their nature, rather than accepting that at times women will be affected by their biology (obviously to a greater or lesser extent depending on the individual).

Feminism is about centreing women and their needs, not ignoring their needs in an attempt to be seen as second class men. Because if we go down that road, that's just what we will carry on being, second class.

Making these issues public, accepted, known is part and parcel of that journey towards equity. And the women that bring those issues to the fore are doing excellent work.

Menopausal but continuing to behave like teenagers. How childish. Why does your being too hot trump her being at a comfortable temperature?

Just buy a desk fan and get over yourself.

Did you ask to open the window?

She insisted?? Did you actually ask "mind if I pop the window open a little, it's so hot in here?"

@Panteranoir your version of feminism doesn’t fit with mine nor any of the women I know. We don’t want our hormones to be front and centre, we don’t want to be discussing or thinking about menopause or periods or hormones in the workplace or have others think about that when looking at us. What we want is equal pay, equal rights, equal respect. Fuck having men put our issues front and centre, no one’s issues should be front and centre of anything.

You two sound like you hate each other and make minimal attempts to conceal it. 😆

Buy a fan for yourself. Ignore her perhaps going forward.

She didn't say people had to sit around discussing their hormones. She said that it was reasonable to make adjustments on the basis of hormones and the impact of those on women.

I agree.

Just because you have a narrow range of social opinions in your friendship group doesn't make you right. Just because I agree with @Panteranoir doesn't make us right.

Try making a proper contribution, not just "me and my friends disagree, so shut up".

In fairness, the OP herself seems to sit round all day (and has done since well before the menopause given her other examples!) doing exactly that.

Words I never want to hear in the office, part 72: “Coil”.

I’m afraid I think you’re being very naive to think that men, or a large proportion of younger women, or even some women in the “menopause category” (that’s what we’re called today, apparently) will draw a distinction between being “hysterical and emotional by nature” and being “hysterical and emotional because biology”. In fact, as I typed that I was thinking you can’t slip a piece of paper between the two. It just isn’t helpful, it encourages people to pigeonhole us, and it doesn’t even apply to a large number of women who either have an easy time or whose symptoms are managed with the pill or HRT.

OP I do appreciate all your comments and thank you for responding. Looking back I guess I could have handled the situation better but I am definitely not an "aggressive " type. She has not been kind to me in the past, so I've always made a point of answering back. We do sound like we are an awful pair together.😫