Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be upset about ‘university blind’ recruitment

788 replies

Newname576 · 17/05/2023 19:31

DS has overcome so many challenges and has an unconditional offer from Cambridge after achieving 4 A star last year. He has worked so hard and we are so proud of him! But I was upset to learn that so many companies are recruiting “university blind”now - what the hell is the point of going to a top Uni if no one will know about it! My younger child says she will apply to Manchester Met and have a ball even though she too is predicted stellar grades as there is no point going to a top Uni

AIBU to be sad that companies are recruiting blind?

OP posts:
powerrangers · 21/05/2023 21:42

Newname576 · 18/05/2023 02:07

For sure @Hammerhouseofhorrors. My under-privileged DS (with A stars) will be reading history at Cambridge though. His 2.1 will be judged equally (under blind recruitment) to a student at crap Uni admitted with CCD. It is crazy and I just don’t get it

Wow. Crap uni. Haven't we got big for our boots with our son at Cambridge. Just stop OP. You look more ghastly by the post. It seems your son doing well has made you quite the revolting snob

ThreeLocusts · 21/05/2023 21:45

Former Oxbridge lecturer here, I left partly because I didn't want to perpetuate the 'we're all here because we're oh so clever' myth any longer.

I understand your annoyance, given your son's background. But since there are still so many students who get into CB by having been to expensive schools that make them safe choices, rather than by being brilliant, I find it hard to argue with university-blind recruitment in principle.

And more to the point: your DS will still have an enormous advantage from the networking opportunities, from the chance to acquire the right mannerisms, learn to adopt the habitus of the well-bred.... as long as he doesn't end up in an unpleasant group of toffs in his college.

I'd focus on preparing him for possible culture shock. But then you sound like you've got a good sense of entitlement, so hopefully your son does too.

TreadLight · 21/05/2023 21:56

Segway16 · 21/05/2023 21:41

Sorry how does this tell me one is better?

I didn't say one was better than the other. I said they were different which, if you read the course descriptions they patently are. Which one is better for a particular individual depends on what that individual is interested in. Which one is better for an employer depends on what skills that employer needs.

Mirabai · 21/05/2023 22:26

ThreeLocusts · 21/05/2023 21:45

Former Oxbridge lecturer here, I left partly because I didn't want to perpetuate the 'we're all here because we're oh so clever' myth any longer.

I understand your annoyance, given your son's background. But since there are still so many students who get into CB by having been to expensive schools that make them safe choices, rather than by being brilliant, I find it hard to argue with university-blind recruitment in principle.

And more to the point: your DS will still have an enormous advantage from the networking opportunities, from the chance to acquire the right mannerisms, learn to adopt the habitus of the well-bred.... as long as he doesn't end up in an unpleasant group of toffs in his college.

I'd focus on preparing him for possible culture shock. But then you sound like you've got a good sense of entitlement, so hopefully your son does too.

I find it odd that an ex lecturer would perpetuate the myth of Oxford as some kind of finishing school. It sounds like you’re talking about Oxford of the 1920s. Well bred? Do you mean mannerisms or manners? And why are you sniping at the OP over “entitlement”?

thing47 · 21/05/2023 22:44

Grade inflation is rampant right now in the UK for tertiary education, and many of the older polytechnics are driving this

That's not actually true. Well yes there is grade inflation but it's not being driven by the former polys.

Horsetoday · 21/05/2023 23:06

Mirabai · 21/05/2023 22:26

I find it odd that an ex lecturer would perpetuate the myth of Oxford as some kind of finishing school. It sounds like you’re talking about Oxford of the 1920s. Well bred? Do you mean mannerisms or manners? And why are you sniping at the OP over “entitlement”?

I don’t know about the 1920s the people I know who went to Oxbridge 1985- 1995 from ordinary backgrounds did not enjoy the experience - they survived it and enjoyed the after-effects. A friend’s ds went this year - he is comp educated but his father were t to Oxford and they are very comfortable - he has fitted right in - he feels entitled to a 1st class education, he’s bright, focused snd motivated and it’s lovely to hear he’s enjoying it, because given how many people I know who did not I was worried.

bottleofbeer · 22/05/2023 01:42

Honorary masters 😁

Some of us went to 'crap' unis and earned a masters.

Murdoch1949 · 22/05/2023 03:44

The problem for your son is that his hard work and ability to overcome challenges is not what the average Oxbridge student has experienced. The majority have gone to public schools where 90+% of the Year 13s get into Oxbridge or at least one of the Russell Group unis (if they're unlucky). In an attempt to level the playing field the 'university blind' approach is used by some, not all, recruiting firms. The firm's want to see the person, not the university, and the person your son is will shine.

Pebblerock · 22/05/2023 06:35

shammalammadingdong · 17/05/2023 19:59

University blind. Yup. That's definitely a thing that they're properly doing. Sure.

I used to work in graduate recruitment for a major graduate recruiter. During screening and the interview process the only way we knew which university they went to it is if they explicitly talked about it in their answers.

I noticed that when candidates from Oxbridge did this in their initial written application, their answers tended to be quite weak - I think they thought if we knew they were at Oxford or Cambridge they’d get an interview anyway.

I’ve worked with many graduates over the years within different organisations. Sometimes the Oxbridge grads are brilliant, sometimes they struggle; sometimes those from less prestigious universities are those who excel.

powerrangers · 22/05/2023 06:35

Murdoch1949 · 22/05/2023 03:44

The problem for your son is that his hard work and ability to overcome challenges is not what the average Oxbridge student has experienced. The majority have gone to public schools where 90+% of the Year 13s get into Oxbridge or at least one of the Russell Group unis (if they're unlucky). In an attempt to level the playing field the 'university blind' approach is used by some, not all, recruiting firms. The firm's want to see the person, not the university, and the person your son is will shine.

90% of no public school got into OB and no, they don't feel getting into a good alternative is 'unlucky'. You sound very chippy.

Poopoolittlekitten · 22/05/2023 10:21

'The problem for your son is that his hard work and ability to overcome challenges is not what the average Oxbridge student has experienced. '

This. And I've yet to meet a private school parent who admits their child has any kind of privilege - their kids have all worked 'bloody' hard for all those grades, DOEs, volunteering in South America etc etc anyway.

Blind recruiting, skills based, is the way forward.

poetryandwine · 22/05/2023 10:49

@Murdoch1949 Westminster School consistently has the highest Oxbridge acceptance rate. It is never above 50%. All other schools worldwide are doing extremely well to get 25-33% acceptances. This will easily put you in the Top Oxbridge Schools list. In the UK the list of top schools includes a number of impressive state schools, mostly sixth form colleges.

Independent schools are over/represented at Oxbridge but their former pupils no longer comprise a majority of the students.

Notwavingbutsignalling · 22/05/2023 11:32

I have been reluctant to reply to this threat but can’t quite tear myself away from the topic as it is so close to home!

I attended a very good secondary school but missed a fair bit of time due to ill health. For some complicated reasons, there was no longer a sixth form for us to go to so I went to a further education college for A’levels. This was a very different set up to the kind of education I had at school where the focus was on attaining a very high standard, a strong and determined character and charity ( it was a Convent). The college had a real mix of ex private school ( not intimidating to me but some were very snooty towards us), some local comp who were a mix of friendly and able and some retakes, mature students, etc. It had none of the focus, structure or intensity my school had ( that I could easily manage) and the demand on us was low - for example when I submitted my first A’level essays I was A’ grade in all of them and the tutors seemed surprised! There was a view, I think that the kind of education I had had up til then was too narrow, too academic? however it is the kind of teaching that gets you those Oxbridge A’grades ( this was the 80s).

So, I didn’t get great A’level grades at the college which was very much focused on creating a good environment where people didn’t feel under great pressure however, the results overall were poor and the ones who did go to university were the same old private school students who got extra tuition plus a few very hardworking students who quietly got on with things in the background.

I went to a polytechnic and again felt that huge gap from where I was to what I was capable of and just couldn’t seem to marry the two in that very laidback environment. It was also in the North and a very different atmosphere to the intense London schools).

I didn’t get a first but did apply to a few colleges and universities for my PGCE and got a place at Oxford. From the moment I arrived, I felt back in the kind of place where I could flourish. I instinctively understood the rules and demands, I loved the scholarly environment and I worked incredibly hard there. For the first time in my entire life, I felt I was on solid ground, that I could exert that pressure on my self and the ground wouldn’t fall away beneath me. I really felt 100ft tall when I left and with such a great mindset ( that in fairness was already there, the place just brought it out).

I could say so much more but about the differences between the two institutions and importantly, the differences between studying English and what was essentially a social science (our essays were assessed at masters level) but I would say that it is true that places like Oxbridge are linear, narrow and specialised early on which is why the higher skills of analysis and I guess, now meta analysis, are focused on. The sheer amount of material the undergraduates have to cover in a select amount of time is incomparable to the polytechnic timetable. The final grade at Oxford is determined by one week of exams, no coursework is carried over, no grades from 2nd year. This intensity, and ability to work at such a pace, is, in my view, the key difference between the two and it is developed by expectation at a young age.

There were also some compulsory texts at Oxford ( Old English, etc) and I don’t remember this at polytechnic. So, some material is more complex although that is usually balanced out by the assessment requirements that focus on understanding and accuracy rather than complex analysis with difficult language pieces.

It’s probably important with these things to mention socio- economic background as I do think there are some contributory factors. My parents are Irish, they came over in the 60s. They were quite modern in their outlook and not at all the type to push for university ( in fact, they were a bit bewildered about me wanting to go, I think!) Dad always wanted his daughters to be financially secure but I think in those days the way this was seen to be done was to get a job in a bank or insurance office. Or nursing!

He worked on the tools when he first arrived here (still looked down on in some places) but was able to work his way up through sheer hard graft. Mum worked in an office.

There is a huge difference between the two institutions but I do think the focus has to be on what is right for the individual at different times in their life. I know someone who dropped out of a high demand sixth form, went somewhere else for A’levels, got into a good university and is now at Cambridge doing a masters. It’s the perfect route for her.

I made great friends at polytechnic and spent my holidays working to keep my debt down ( with a small pocket of travelling) but the advantages and options Oxbridge offer are fantastic. It is a myth to think you don’t have to work incredibly hard once you are there or afterwards. My experience is that people don’t see all the background work that goes in to making things work, all the juggling, all the strategising. They only see the slightly aloof nonchalance and think it’s arrogance but actually for some they are carrying a tremendous responsibility. One thing that stood out to me about the obviously privileged men I met there is that there is no room for failure for them. They know that the price of their privilege is the expectation that they will take on demanding roles - an Oxbridge education teaches you ways to manage that pressure, I think. I remember feeling glad that I hadn’t had that expectation on me at 17.

Lastly, and I apologise for the essay, the administration at Oxford was unbelievable. Again, this was the first time I experienced someone doing something for my benefit in such a supportive, positive way. You really do feel a level of support that allows you to straighten yourself up and shake off anything that you were carrying. That space doesn’t exist in real life for a lot of ordinary people.

When I left there, I remember thinking actually this is the fairest system - assessment on A’levels rather than background, family name, etc. It’s not without its faults and contextual offers go some way to remedy this as students are traditionally graded on the quality of the teaching at their school rather than their ability in many instances but my goodness, what an experience it was just for one year. It really shows you what the world is like through the lens of options and resources when most of see the world through lack or problems. From that powerful position, you really start to see what can be done, should be done, isn’t being done and can extend part of yourself to figure out the whys.

Sorry again for the essay. So much of this concerns me as we have definitely conflated university with careers which is no harm in terms of content and focus at a time students pay £9000 a year, but university, and crucially those years from 18-21, are about so much more. They really can set you up for the future.

MrsMeanwhile · 22/05/2023 11:35

Newname576 · 17/05/2023 19:39

But all degrees aren’t equal @NeverDropYourMooncup - someone who gets a 1st from Cambridge has covered a lot more than the equivalent degree from uni of Hertfordshire!

Do you have any evidence for this?

Iwasafool · 22/05/2023 16:17

Notwavingbutsignalling · 22/05/2023 11:32

I have been reluctant to reply to this threat but can’t quite tear myself away from the topic as it is so close to home!

I attended a very good secondary school but missed a fair bit of time due to ill health. For some complicated reasons, there was no longer a sixth form for us to go to so I went to a further education college for A’levels. This was a very different set up to the kind of education I had at school where the focus was on attaining a very high standard, a strong and determined character and charity ( it was a Convent). The college had a real mix of ex private school ( not intimidating to me but some were very snooty towards us), some local comp who were a mix of friendly and able and some retakes, mature students, etc. It had none of the focus, structure or intensity my school had ( that I could easily manage) and the demand on us was low - for example when I submitted my first A’level essays I was A’ grade in all of them and the tutors seemed surprised! There was a view, I think that the kind of education I had had up til then was too narrow, too academic? however it is the kind of teaching that gets you those Oxbridge A’grades ( this was the 80s).

So, I didn’t get great A’level grades at the college which was very much focused on creating a good environment where people didn’t feel under great pressure however, the results overall were poor and the ones who did go to university were the same old private school students who got extra tuition plus a few very hardworking students who quietly got on with things in the background.

I went to a polytechnic and again felt that huge gap from where I was to what I was capable of and just couldn’t seem to marry the two in that very laidback environment. It was also in the North and a very different atmosphere to the intense London schools).

I didn’t get a first but did apply to a few colleges and universities for my PGCE and got a place at Oxford. From the moment I arrived, I felt back in the kind of place where I could flourish. I instinctively understood the rules and demands, I loved the scholarly environment and I worked incredibly hard there. For the first time in my entire life, I felt I was on solid ground, that I could exert that pressure on my self and the ground wouldn’t fall away beneath me. I really felt 100ft tall when I left and with such a great mindset ( that in fairness was already there, the place just brought it out).

I could say so much more but about the differences between the two institutions and importantly, the differences between studying English and what was essentially a social science (our essays were assessed at masters level) but I would say that it is true that places like Oxbridge are linear, narrow and specialised early on which is why the higher skills of analysis and I guess, now meta analysis, are focused on. The sheer amount of material the undergraduates have to cover in a select amount of time is incomparable to the polytechnic timetable. The final grade at Oxford is determined by one week of exams, no coursework is carried over, no grades from 2nd year. This intensity, and ability to work at such a pace, is, in my view, the key difference between the two and it is developed by expectation at a young age.

There were also some compulsory texts at Oxford ( Old English, etc) and I don’t remember this at polytechnic. So, some material is more complex although that is usually balanced out by the assessment requirements that focus on understanding and accuracy rather than complex analysis with difficult language pieces.

It’s probably important with these things to mention socio- economic background as I do think there are some contributory factors. My parents are Irish, they came over in the 60s. They were quite modern in their outlook and not at all the type to push for university ( in fact, they were a bit bewildered about me wanting to go, I think!) Dad always wanted his daughters to be financially secure but I think in those days the way this was seen to be done was to get a job in a bank or insurance office. Or nursing!

He worked on the tools when he first arrived here (still looked down on in some places) but was able to work his way up through sheer hard graft. Mum worked in an office.

There is a huge difference between the two institutions but I do think the focus has to be on what is right for the individual at different times in their life. I know someone who dropped out of a high demand sixth form, went somewhere else for A’levels, got into a good university and is now at Cambridge doing a masters. It’s the perfect route for her.

I made great friends at polytechnic and spent my holidays working to keep my debt down ( with a small pocket of travelling) but the advantages and options Oxbridge offer are fantastic. It is a myth to think you don’t have to work incredibly hard once you are there or afterwards. My experience is that people don’t see all the background work that goes in to making things work, all the juggling, all the strategising. They only see the slightly aloof nonchalance and think it’s arrogance but actually for some they are carrying a tremendous responsibility. One thing that stood out to me about the obviously privileged men I met there is that there is no room for failure for them. They know that the price of their privilege is the expectation that they will take on demanding roles - an Oxbridge education teaches you ways to manage that pressure, I think. I remember feeling glad that I hadn’t had that expectation on me at 17.

Lastly, and I apologise for the essay, the administration at Oxford was unbelievable. Again, this was the first time I experienced someone doing something for my benefit in such a supportive, positive way. You really do feel a level of support that allows you to straighten yourself up and shake off anything that you were carrying. That space doesn’t exist in real life for a lot of ordinary people.

When I left there, I remember thinking actually this is the fairest system - assessment on A’levels rather than background, family name, etc. It’s not without its faults and contextual offers go some way to remedy this as students are traditionally graded on the quality of the teaching at their school rather than their ability in many instances but my goodness, what an experience it was just for one year. It really shows you what the world is like through the lens of options and resources when most of see the world through lack or problems. From that powerful position, you really start to see what can be done, should be done, isn’t being done and can extend part of yourself to figure out the whys.

Sorry again for the essay. So much of this concerns me as we have definitely conflated university with careers which is no harm in terms of content and focus at a time students pay £9000 a year, but university, and crucially those years from 18-21, are about so much more. They really can set you up for the future.

So you are comparing an under grad at a poly and a post grad at Oxford? Not quite the same thing are they.

ladykale · 22/05/2023 16:40

HunterHearstHelmsley · 17/05/2023 20:19

As a recruiting manager, I have never looked at where someone earned their degree. I've only ever even checked if it is a role requirement.

It's fantastic that more companies aren't giving special treatment to certain universities.

So what do you look at if not degree or grades?

The U.K. is bonkers and really against achievement in a way that will pave its downward spiral compared to other nations

Notwavingbutsignalling · 22/05/2023 16:57

@Iwasafool

I said a lot more than that and tried to illustrate different systems and how they determine outcome.

Parker231 · 22/05/2023 16:59

ladykale · 22/05/2023 16:40

So what do you look at if not degree or grades?

The U.K. is bonkers and really against achievement in a way that will pave its downward spiral compared to other nations

Blind recruitment is becoming more common in other countries. My firm uses it worldwide. We use strength based assessment, group exercises and in many cases how they have performed in a summer placement.

We want a well rounded employee and not just someone who can pass exams.

Lamelie · 22/05/2023 17:02

ladykale · 22/05/2023 16:40

So what do you look at if not degree or grades?

The U.K. is bonkers and really against achievement in a way that will pave its downward spiral compared to other nations

It’s the opposite. Pp are recruited via tests and for aptitude. You could have an Oxford first on PPE and zero people skills. Look at recent cabinets. Civil Service recruits on aptitude not attainment.

Iwasafool · 22/05/2023 17:09

Notwavingbutsignalling · 22/05/2023 16:57

@Iwasafool

I said a lot more than that and tried to illustrate different systems and how they determine outcome.

But your experience was as an under grad in one and a post grad in another. Don't you think there is a difference, for all you know being an under grad at Oxford is very different to your experience? The same at the poly, if you'd done you PGCE at the poly you might have been amazed at how different it was to your previous experience.

dogsanddolphines · 22/05/2023 17:46

@Notwavingbutsignalling You are correct in that university and careers are separate and that the scholarly atmosphere etc at a high achieving university is different.

You are wrong in that the ability to 'work at pace' academically, at Oxbridge, is relevant in a wide variety of places outside academia. And 'demanding roles'.. please. These roles aren't that 'demanding' for privileged people because they don't actually have to do any work to get promoted , and have house deposits etc from mummy and daddy anyway. Lots of them also get jobs via mummy and daddy's best mates.

I'd go so far as to say that hanging out with these people doesn't put you in a 'position of power'. It emphasis what you're up aaginst if you don't belong.

You need to work well with pressure in the 'outside world', yes, but that's about it. More crucially you need communication with people not at your level, and that's where the 'Oxbridge excellent analysis blah2' falls apart.

My role is intellectually demanding. Not just in the amount of knowledge needed, but the constant change, needing to keep up, etc. More importantly, in order to get things working I need to condense all of this into various levels of understanding, for different parties.

Many very clever people, while technically brilliant have failed to progress because they lack this key skill.

Let's put it this way - Oxbridge (and other prestigious unis) select for brilliance. They already have the raw ingredients for deep thinking. Going to Oxbridge makes them great at academic analysis and writing, yes, but it doesn't create something that didn't already exist.

Btw I do think a prestigious university confers advantages but it's about the brand name, career support and academic ability of the cohort. Me, I am academic, I enjoy intellectual challenge and had I not been a poor student on scholarship I'd have gone into academia. That, certainly, gives advantages.

I'd also say the level of ambition is different, DP went to a 'crap' uni and all his friends have low paid jobs + live at home. he was the only one who got onto a prestigious grad scheme and in his very first month wiped the floor with RG graduates and immediately got snapped up into the team of a man who is very academically well regarded in our field.

But then again, he is autistic and not very good at exams. He has however been tinkering with stuff since he was a teenager. There are many like him.

If a child of mine discounted a prestigious university because 'there's no point' then they wouldn't suit anyway.

Notwavingbutsignalling · 22/05/2023 18:08

@dogsanddolphines

need to work well with pressure in the 'outside world', yes, but that's about it. More crucially you need communication with people not at your level, and that's where the 'Oxbridge excellent analysis blah2' falls apart.

My role is intellectually demanding. Not just in the amount of knowledge needed, but the constant change, needing to keep up, etc. More importantly, in order to get things working I need to condense all of this into various levels of understanding, for different parties.

Many very clever people, while technically brilliant have failed to progress because they lack this key skill.

I suspect that they found an easier role to do rather than they couldn’t do it. And I mentioned Oxford as it was my experience but I would also include many other institutions that demand a lot from their students. They may be technical courses at ex polys, research institutes, etc

I was trying to outline the differences not make a comparative judgement and I don’t quite get the point you are making.

dogsanddolphines · 22/05/2023 18:26

Notwavingbutsignalling · 22/05/2023 18:08

@dogsanddolphines

need to work well with pressure in the 'outside world', yes, but that's about it. More crucially you need communication with people not at your level, and that's where the 'Oxbridge excellent analysis blah2' falls apart.

My role is intellectually demanding. Not just in the amount of knowledge needed, but the constant change, needing to keep up, etc. More importantly, in order to get things working I need to condense all of this into various levels of understanding, for different parties.

Many very clever people, while technically brilliant have failed to progress because they lack this key skill.

I suspect that they found an easier role to do rather than they couldn’t do it. And I mentioned Oxford as it was my experience but I would also include many other institutions that demand a lot from their students. They may be technical courses at ex polys, research institutes, etc

I was trying to outline the differences not make a comparative judgement and I don’t quite get the point you are making.

I was responding to your 'comparative judgement', agreeing with some of what you said and disagreeing with others. However. this is just an online forum so I understand if you don't the bandwidth to engage with essays in response to your own.

Hidinginplainsightnow · 22/05/2023 18:48

I’m confused about exactly what you’re being reasonable/unreasonable about but I do think you sound pretty smug & elitist about your DS going to Cambridge. Good luck to him and other students wherever they apply, and good luck finding a job afterwards which is rewarding & useful, not just lucrative. For the record, the only person I know who expressed an opinion to me on graduate employment said they’d rather have a 2:1 or 2:2 from a middle of the road establishment than a first from Oxbridge as the “lower” grade person would have more idea of practical application. Ok bring on the haters.

sunglassesonthetable · 22/05/2023 19:15

*So what do you look at if not degree or grades?

The U.K. is bonkers and really against achievement in a way that will pave its downward spiral compared to other nations*

God alive.

We've had cabinet after cabinet of Oxbridge grads in government. How has that gone?

Partygate anyone? Liz Truss economics? The integrity of Boris Johnson? PPI contracts to mates?

You couldn't make it up. It's all working so terribly well.

Downward spiral indeed @ladykale