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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think that protests do make a difference and do bring about change?

52 replies

cakeorwine · 10/05/2023 18:28

Linked to the thread about protests and the new law.

Over the history of the world, there have been protests. Some peaceful, some disruptive.

And some of them have brought about change.

Gandhi and his non violent resistance.
Rosa Parks
Anti-Vietnam protests.

I am sure there are a lot more.

I wonder what this world would look like if people didn't stand up for their beliefs and weren't able to protest easily.

And it looks like it's getting harder to protest.

OP posts:
blueshoes · 13/05/2023 00:40

The protests that destroy property or disrupt people going about their day and earning a living like Extinction Rebellion or Insulate Britain don't work to bring people to their cause.

Their tactics have put me off the whole idea of climate change.

EveSix · 13/05/2023 01:02

OneFineMess, spot on.

BlueShoes, "Their tactics have put me off the whole idea of climate change." Climate change isn't an idea that people can decide to get into or be put off by, though. It is the truth into which we bring our babies, and the deadly legacy of scarcity and suffering they will inherit. Extinction Rebellion, Insulate Britain, Just Stop Oil and even Stop HS2 are all doing the only sane, rational thing in the circumstances: guided by science, they are asking policy makers to make decisions with the wellbeing of the planet and all life upon it in mind. They have, very effectively, shifted the Overton Window, and as a result, the issue of the climate is in greater public awareness.

blueshoes · 13/05/2023 01:34

EveSix · 13/05/2023 01:02

OneFineMess, spot on.

BlueShoes, "Their tactics have put me off the whole idea of climate change." Climate change isn't an idea that people can decide to get into or be put off by, though. It is the truth into which we bring our babies, and the deadly legacy of scarcity and suffering they will inherit. Extinction Rebellion, Insulate Britain, Just Stop Oil and even Stop HS2 are all doing the only sane, rational thing in the circumstances: guided by science, they are asking policy makers to make decisions with the wellbeing of the planet and all life upon it in mind. They have, very effectively, shifted the Overton Window, and as a result, the issue of the climate is in greater public awareness.

EveSix, I will not add my voice to any of those groups' causes on point of principle even if the whole world burns. Not that my opinion counts. If there is greater public awareness, it is of their selfish and dangerous tactics. Their message is dead to me.

Swrigh1234 · 13/05/2023 02:37

Protests follow change. It’s just a mis perception that it’s the other way around.

Swrigh1234 · 13/05/2023 02:39

And some protests are and always will be for hobbyists. The majority just want go about their lives.

Emotionalstorm · 13/05/2023 02:44

Protests are uncivilised and rude. Britain should be better than that. If you don't like something you can go to the polls at the next general election.

wildfirewonder · 13/05/2023 06:42

Emotionalstorm · 13/05/2023 02:44

Protests are uncivilised and rude. Britain should be better than that. If you don't like something you can go to the polls at the next general election.

Protests being considered 'rude' has made me Grin

And bollocks to waiting until the next GE.

wildfirewonder · 13/05/2023 06:45

blueshoes · 13/05/2023 01:34

EveSix, I will not add my voice to any of those groups' causes on point of principle even if the whole world burns. Not that my opinion counts. If there is greater public awareness, it is of their selfish and dangerous tactics. Their message is dead to me.

You are a living example of cutting your nose off to spite your face @blueshoes !

Cheguevarahamster · 13/05/2023 06:48

As as a republican, please tell me how I would vote out the King?

Cheguevarahamster · 13/05/2023 06:50

Emotionalstorm · 13/05/2023 02:44

Protests are uncivilised and rude. Britain should be better than that. If you don't like something you can go to the polls at the next general election.

Can't quite get the hang of quotes/reply.

Again as a republican, pray tell me how I would vote out the King?

ChopperC110P · 13/05/2023 08:23

Cheguevarahamster · 13/05/2023 06:48

As as a republican, please tell me how I would vote out the King?

All sovereign power rests with Parliament. If you want to abolish the monarchy, you need Parliament to do it. So make it known to your MP or MP candidates.

blueshoes · 13/05/2023 13:12

wildfirewonder · 13/05/2023 06:45

You are a living example of cutting your nose off to spite your face @blueshoes !

Your flawed assumption is everyone believes in what you believe in. The problem with disruptive protests for publicity sake is that the fence sitters (who tend to form the majority) get put off the message and close their minds to the science.

I would say it is an own goal by the protesters.

Cheguevarahamster · 13/05/2023 13:32

ChopperC110P · 13/05/2023 08:23

All sovereign power rests with Parliament. If you want to abolish the monarchy, you need Parliament to do it. So make it known to your MP or MP candidates.

Done that. And I'll also exercise my right to peacefully protest.

DownNative · 13/05/2023 13:36

FindingMeno · 11/05/2023 18:44

The Greenham Common protest absolutely did play a big part in the removal of US cruise missiles. It also continued until the base was returned to common land.
Sheer persistence can and does work. Law breaking is justified in order to stop greater harm.
Look at Greta and the change of opinion and the discussion one young dedicated girl brought about.

Problem with Greta Thunberg is that she's literally cherry picking science on the issue.

There's no doubt that science absolutely supports climate change and human driven ecological problems, including species extinction.

But the science DOESN'T support Greta's mass extinction narrative. It simply doesn't support her impending doom narrative at all.

Since Greta Thunberg openly admits she wants people to literally feel fear because she feels fear, we can conclude she believes that an apocalyptic message will help in her quest to help the environment.

But she's very wrong on that.

"Results indicate that stories with a solution focus were more effective in motivating proenvironmental intentions than catastrophic stories."

And:

"Some readers were motivated by catastrophic stories to engage in climate change mitigation behaviors, but many reported feelings of futility and low self-efficacy and “switched off” from catastrophic stories due to their negativity."

www.liebertpub.com/doi/abs/10.1089/eco.2019.0023?journalCode=eco

Not only is it counterproductive to do, but it's blatantly manipulative as well. Especially when the science doesn't support her mass extinction narrative in the first place.

Promote environmental responsibility by all means.

But don't lie or distort the science into something it doesn't even support. It's that simple.

Governments and the scientific community have been doing many great things from an environmental point of view. Problem is some like Greta want things to move a lot faster than is actually possible because she personally is fearful.

Fear filled messages usually end up with people feeling like it's too futile to do anything and others switched off from the constant negativity.

To add to the above and to make people think:

“The constant barrage of news that the world is ending takes a toll.” - Van Susteren, the climate psychiatrist.

www.nbcnews.com/health/mental-health/climate-grief-growing-emotional-toll-climate-change-n946751

Yep, a climate psychiatrist is a thing now as are grieving groups dealing with grief over the climate or Armageddon.

The more people talk, the better able they are to deal with challenges. But that doesn't justify scaring the shit out of people.

The more people research climate change, the more they'll realise that the subject is extremely complicated. And, crucially, that Armageddon is NOT upon us.

Doom and gloom such as Greta Thunberg's simply does nothing to advance the cause of environmental responsibility.

It paralyses people. It turns them off. Demoralises them. Saps them off energy.

Exactly what you don't want to have happen. Especially in a much touted emergency situation.

It's really sad to hear about adults and children suffering mentally due to irresponsible Armageddon rhetoric being popularised by the likes of Greta Thunberg.

An example of Greta Thunberg's rhetoric which she gave at the UN:

"We are in the beginning of a mass extinction."

And here's what an expert in mass extinction says:

“People who claim we’re in the sixth mass extinction don’t understand enough about mass extinctions to understand the logical flaw in their argument. To a certain extent they’re claiming it as a way of frightening people into action, when in fact, if it’s actually true we’re in a sixth mass extinction, then there’s no point in conservation biology.

If we’re really in a mass extinction—if we’re in the [End- Permian mass extinction 252 million years ago]—go get a case of scotch." - Smithsonian paleontologist Doug Erwin.

By the, Erwin is NOT saying we don't need to be more environmentally friendly. He believes rhetoric like Greta's is very unhelpful and scientists have a duty to be Greta is merely an activist who doesn't consider the bigger picture. Scientifically speaking, she hasnt changed a thing in relation to cloclimate change.

It is NOT protests that works for the issue of climate change.

DownNative · 13/05/2023 13:39

Cheguevarahamster · 13/05/2023 13:32

Done that. And I'll also exercise my right to peacefully protest.

It is only a conditional right and always has been since it has to be counterbalanced against the rights of others.

Protest and assembly in public places along with freedom of speech and expression are also conditional.

These rights are usually called non-absolute rights.

But at the same time there is no majority for what you want either. 🤷‍♂️

CheeseTouch · 13/05/2023 13:42

HeadNorth · 10/05/2023 19:27

The poll tax riots brought down Thatcher - protests can work if they capture the zeitgeist.

This.

Dinopawus · 13/05/2023 14:01

With hindsight, protests appear successful. Except the ones we haven't ever heard of, which weren't.

That said, protests can raise awareness and movement can lead to cultural and political change. Women's rights, clause 28 & NI peace marches spring to mind.

But political context is also key. 5 million could have protested against Iraq and Blair would still have got a majority in the HOC because even if his own MPs wobbled the Tories would have voted it through.

Thatcher was brought down by her cabinet, but the riots provided a spark and a narrative of unrest that led to her ministers moving against her.

Emotionalstorm · 13/05/2023 14:43

CheeseTouch · 13/05/2023 13:42

This.

It's not about whether it works. It's not right that a government is brought down that way. The civilised way to do it would be at the polls.

RamblingEclectic · 13/05/2023 14:45

Demonstration protests? No, I don't think they do much directly. The best they do is connect people of similar interests who can then create the required community networks needed and potentially bring in new people through the reporting of it. They're a tool, and can be useful when this priority of connection and building is kept in mind, but it doesn't in itself create change and the vast majority of demonstration protests we're seeing right now do not have those in mind.

Rosa Parks' arrest wasn't a demonstration protest. The Montgomery Bus Boycott that started after Rosa Parks was arrested required a lot of intercommunity involvement from different work places, churches, and organizations and lasted 13 months. It involved some people having to walk 20+ miles per work day. It involved strategic discussions and acts around the trials and other legal proceeding going on. She was in part centred for it because of her appearance and background compared to others who had also refused and were arrested. None of her later work were demonstration protests either.

The Bristol Bus Boycott, which we're in the midst of the 60th anniversary of and was inspired by the Montgomery Bus Boycott, similarly required a lot of effort and intercommunity involvement over the four months it went on.

The anti-Vietnam protests required repeated effort and went far beyond even the ones that were massive gatherings and really were not the biggest part of the US withdrawing from that conflict after so many bloody years by a long shot.

There are many tactics that make change, most of them are slow and steady and creating the help people need outside of the state before the state gets involved and tries to take credit.

finallygotospeaktoSky · 13/05/2023 15:00

Full on civil unrest could potentially break down the structure of society, rioting, looting, threat to personal safety and damage to property is not the way to go.

CoffeeCantata · 13/05/2023 15:56

FindingMeno · 11/05/2023 18:44
The Greenham Common protest absolutely did play a big part in the removal of US cruise missiles. It also continued until the base was returned to common land.
Sheer persistence can and does work. Law breaking is justified in order to stop greater harm.
Look at Greta and the change of opinion and the discussion one young dedicated girl brought about.

No - the missiles were removed due to hard-working diplomacy resulting in the signing of the Intermediate Nuclear Forces Treaty of 1987 between Gorbachev and Reagan. I don't think Reagan would have taken any notice of what was going on at Greenham Common - rather the opposite, I would think. It's sentimental to believe the protest did the trick, and wishing doesn't make it so.

I think protesters are a certain sort of person and they tend to live in a bubble. They idon't seem to get the alienation most people feel when they see areas taken over ((eg Parliament Square, the area around St Paul's etc etc) and turned into horrible dumps by often very intimidating people.

God - I was once trying to cross a road and got almost trampled by a so-called peaceful march. The marchers were not pleasant people and I felt very intimidated. Activists need to take this on board - but I suspect few of them care and thoroughly enjoy being intimidating!

CoffeeCantata · 13/05/2023 16:03

Cheguevarahamster · Today 06:48
As as a republican, please tell me how I would vote out the King?

Lobby for a referendum. But most people just don't care about this issue - especially in the current climate.

It's way down the list of things we need to prioritise for most people in this country.

CoffeeCantata · 13/05/2023 16:05

HeadNorth · 10/05/2023 19:27
The poll tax riots brought down Thatcher - protests can work if they capture the zeitgeist.

Eh? But that was 1981. Thatcher was in power until 1991.

The poll tax riots didn't bring down Thatcher.

blueshoes · 13/05/2023 16:07

Some posters might be romanticising the power of protests and taking credit for other more sensitive and dogged work behind the scenes to bring about change.

HeadNorth · 13/05/2023 16:12

CoffeeCantata · 13/05/2023 16:05

HeadNorth · 10/05/2023 19:27
The poll tax riots brought down Thatcher - protests can work if they capture the zeitgeist.

Eh? But that was 1981. Thatcher was in power until 1991.

The poll tax riots didn't bring down Thatcher.

The huge poll tax riot in London took place in 1990 and as a previous poster noted, led to her cabinet moving against her and ousting her as PM.

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