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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

What are your barriers to sustainable living? What would it take for you to ^get there^?

191 replies

greenspaceplace · 10/05/2023 10:13

Inspired by yet another message from David Attenborough.

● Car - I can't afford one, DH gets to work in a company van (up to 10 men at a time) but he works all over so the emissions are still probably very high.
● Bicycle - Storage and cost was a problem before I moved out of my flat
● Public transport - great where I live and cheap.
○ Plastic packaging - I cant afford butcher, fruit and veg shop, zero waste shops are too much
● Grow fruit and veg (loads of community gardens and allotments to pick from, now I have a garden I have space, it was a barrier living in a flat), my grandparents had fruit trees so I got fruit from them
●Buy mostly second hand (easy its cheaper)
●Save water (easy with small children sharing a bath, use the bath water in the garden etc
● Passing on used clothes/ toys- Charity shops collect round here but you need to have more than 20 black bags worth. So it's easy when we have a massive sort through.
○Buying things that last- Tricky for us, we buy about 3 pairs of rubbish s hool shoes per child per year. I can't afford the upfront cost of a better pair and to be honest I thought £20 was expensive for school shoes
○Recycling- we didn't have Recycling bins in our flat, I've recently moved and have normal and Recycling bin. The council took all of the big recycling bins when they gave residents Recycling bins but people in flats didn't get one.
●Electric and gas usage, even before the cost of living we live in terrace and a flat so it was easy enough t o keep the house warm with little heating. We didn't have central heating in our flat and used to only use hot water bottles and blankets to stay warm when we first moved out. It was scary when we had a newborn and it was freezing though. I used to make a den in the kids bunk bed and sleep in bottom bunk altogether when it was really cold. We didn't have heating in there for 7 years! Now we have heating after we moved it's difficult to not use it, but we only have it on about half hour in the morning and an hour in the evening. old habits and all. We were ready for the Cost of living crisis at least.

I can't think of any more right now, but the main barrier for me is plastic packaging.
If supermarkets gave the option I would buy without.
If the local bakery self bread fir less than £6 a loaf I'd come in every day.
I used to go to the butcher and fruit and veg shop but when I moved (5 min walk from an aldi and lidl) I stopped going, the cost and convenience of a supermarket has to win.
I'm a sahm so I have time to mess about with charity shops, a vegetable garden etc.

I want to know what everyone else's barriers are, in a perfect world I'd live in the shire and my food would come from next door.

OP posts:
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6
Bananah · 10/05/2023 17:16

Where I live there’s a 20 year waiting list for an allotment. A house with a garden big enough to grow veg will set you back best part of a million pounds. Pretty much nobody is growing veg even though they’d like to.

And I can’t use zero waste shops because of the risk of cross contamination. If someone puts a scoop in the flour then uses the same scoop on the rice, the rice is contaminated with wheat and will make me sick. I need food sealed in plastic (or similar) at the factory so it doesn’t touch other food.

Everything is miles away (school would be a 90 minute walk, cycling to work would take 3hrs) so we need a car.

The fact is, our society is set up in a way that is not environmentally friendly and it’s impossible to change it. We can’t have unwrapped food at supermarkets because of the risk of contamination or tampering. We can’t walk or cycle because everything is too spread out. We don’t have the infrastructure for everyone to have an electric car. House prices make it impossible for people to have gardens, new build plots are too small. Etc.

Sparklybutold · 10/05/2023 17:22

Money

Using maslows hierarchy - I feel in survival mode. Being sustainable requires an extra layer of thinking I just don't have the capacity for.

Daftasabroom · 10/05/2023 17:24

@Lcb123 Have an energy supplier which does renewable electricity

These are scope 2 emissions and quite possibly, alongside traveling, this is the single biggest thing a household can do. It's simple, costs little, no hassle or inconvenience.

Genuinely fabulous 🤩

Neededanewuserhandle · 10/05/2023 17:37

Daftasabroom · 10/05/2023 17:11

Running an old diesel car is more environmentally damaging than a new EV after about 150,000km. Lot's of studies to support that.

The study into non exhaust particulate emissions was dodgy at best, and beyond was really badly reported. I suspect you haven't read the paper, I have.

Woodburners should be banned in suburban and urban areas. Agreed.

It is well recognised that there are approximately (no statistic is 100% certain) 40,000 deaths in the UK each year due to particulate emissions. If you really don't think this is an issue there are some absolute bargain properties next to congestion hot spots - fill your boots.

It is well recognised that there are approximately (no statistic is 100% certain) 40,000 deaths in the UK each year due to particulate emissions.
That's simply incorrect.
The 40K estimate is based on a combination of estimates of NoX and particulate deaths. You are misrepresenting it.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-39129270

Exhaust fumes from a car

Reality Check: Does pollution cut short 40,000 lives a year?

Where does the figure of 40,000 early deaths per year in the UK come from?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-39129270

Semtee · 10/05/2023 17:43

greenspaceplace · 10/05/2023 10:37

Biodegradable nappies are basically a myth. Nothing can biodegrade in a landfill. So you'd have to compost those nappies and it's probably like those biodegradable bags that I used to buy, they sit in a compost bin for years not biodegrading. There are products marketed as Bio Degradable or degradable which is plastic that degrades, not good for anything. If the worms don't eat it, it's not good.

There was a really good documentary about green washing and how companies can claim something is biodegradable but it isn't really.
I'll Tey to find it. The do the same with 'organic'. There are factory farmed chickens that are labelled organic but not free range, not organic in the sense we think but technically its allowed to be labelled as such.
green washing where companies make it seem like something is eco but it isn't.

Don't know if it's already been covered but they absolutely do compost, just as long as you don't wrap them up really tight. Wee is very good for soil. We don't compost pooey ones and use reusables in the day. Potty training at just turning 2 rather than 3 is a big thing you can do to reduce nappy usage, but a lot of people think their children aren't ready (probably unlikely in most cases as it's very much the norm in other countries and was here until at least the 1980s).

Howmanysleepsnow · 10/05/2023 17:55

Car - i have an non eco friendly diesel car, would love something more economical or better still, electric, but can’t afford to replace. I only use the car for commuting or the vet really (elderly dog needs monthly visits and can’t walk that far). Otherwise I tend to walk

Public transport - I have a bit of a phobia of being attacked on it so it’s a no from me.

Plastic packaging - butcher, fruit and veg shop are only open Monday-Friday and I’m in work so I’m at the mercy of supermarkets

Grow fruit and veg- I have fruit trees, but there’s too many rats to feel safe eating anything low growing

Buy mostly second hand- yes. Or not but at all as I don’t have much disposable income.

Save water (easy with small children sharing a bath, don’t water the garden)

Passing on used clothes/ toys- Toys and books yes. Shoes/ clothes get worn until worn out.

Buying things that last- can’t afford this. But hardly buy anything unless replacing worn out stuff

Recycling- yes. Except soft plastic as no facility locally

Electric and gas usage- try to minimise, though we have a damp / mould problem if heating is off unless we use a dehumidifier

Howmanysleepsnow · 10/05/2023 17:59

basically, cost is the biggest barrier. It’d be much easier if I could afford to insulate my home, treat mould, buy a more environmentally friendly car etc.
Time is another barrier. My commute would double on public transport (which I can’t manage with kids/ school to work around) and I can’t easily go to various grocers/ butchers/ bakers while out at work 8-6

minipie · 10/05/2023 18:09

“what’s the point” is a massive one for me.

Frankly, I and a few other privileged individuals tinkering round the edges buying from plastic free shops is going to make sod all difference compared with the massive scale use of resources happening industrially and globally.

I hate waste and try to plan / use up / reuse / recycle/ donate wherever possible. But I’m not kidding myself it makes much difference.

What we really need is 1) global agreements, backed up by national legislation and 2) fewer humans being born. I believe both will happen but unfortunately not until things have got a lot worse environmentally.

NorthFaceofthelaundrypile · 10/05/2023 18:16

Proper cycle paths connecting all towns and villages. I would be more than happy to cycle the 9 mile to and from work if I didn’t have to cycle on the roads.

whatkatydid2013 · 10/05/2023 21:55

I try harder in some areas than others. We are relatively good at everything but travel but pretty rubbish at that

I’m unsure what we are doing makes any difference but if everyone does a little bit it can’t really hurt

MintJulia · 11/05/2023 08:56

Daftasabroom · 10/05/2023 15:03

@onefinemess re your 15 year old diesel. 40,000 people a year die from particulate emission linked diseases. I hope your pleased with yourself? No doubt in your world a good day maybe most of these will be children.

Source?

As another poster said, all vehicles produce particles. And there are plenty of other sources. Producing one diesel car that lasts 20years is more environmentally friendly than two electric cars that last 10 each.

Daftasabroom · 11/05/2023 09:16

MintJulia · 11/05/2023 08:56

Source?

As another poster said, all vehicles produce particles. And there are plenty of other sources. Producing one diesel car that lasts 20years is more environmentally friendly than two electric cars that last 10 each.

Source = DEFRA, Cambridge University, KCL etc. There are a lot of peer reviewed studies. 40,000 is one of the higher estimates (root mean square) but not the highest, 28,000 is the lowest.

Why would an EV last 10 years if diesel car lasts 20? That makes no sense.

user4750 · 11/05/2023 09:25

Daftasabroom · 11/05/2023 09:16

Source = DEFRA, Cambridge University, KCL etc. There are a lot of peer reviewed studies. 40,000 is one of the higher estimates (root mean square) but not the highest, 28,000 is the lowest.

Why would an EV last 10 years if diesel car lasts 20? That makes no sense.

Unfortunately the batteries in EV cars last on average 10 years (to the extent that they can be used in the car). They then need replacing which whacks up their carbon footprint massively.

None of these issues are simple. I can recommend the book "How Bad are Bananas" its really well written and a fascinating read and it helps you to work through some of these dilemmas with properly researched facts and calculations carried out by a world leading scientist in this field (who is also British).

MooseBreath · 11/05/2023 09:28

I used to cycle to work, but in all honesty, I was a danger on the roads. I am not good at riding a bicycle. I waver and fall at random and I stopped cycling because it wasn't safe for me or other people on the road. No way in hell would I do this with 2 children in tow.

Public transport is very expensive and basically non-existent where I live. Lugging around 2 children under 3 when the nearest bus stop is a 20 minute walk across a busy road to then ride to a shop that is another 5 minute walk from a bus stop to do groceries is far too difficult. Plus, buses only come twice per day.

Pretty much all supermarkets use plastic packaging. I buy loose produce where possible, but it's not feasible to avoid all plastic packaging. The local butcher and greengrocer are far too expensive for me.

My garden is small and won't even let grass seed take, so attempting to grow my own produce would be futile. I also don't enjoy gardening, but that's besides the point.

I wish I could buy better quality clothing and household items, but there is a definite cost barrier. I try not to buy poor quality, but when you can get a pair of children's shoes for £6 that would last 3 months instead of forking out £40 to last until they're outgrown in 6 months, I can't justify the hit on our finances at the moment.

We had our heating on more than usual this winter because we had a newborn. We're in a rental, so installing solar panels as if we could afford to isn't an option.

My family live in Canada, so we fly across the Atlantic every few years and my parents fly to visit us a few times per year. There isn't really a viable alternative to travel that far, so plane it is. I would also fly to a holiday destination if we had the money, but only once per year at most. British holidays are always rainy and expensive in my experience.

We eat meat 3-4 times per week, which I'd like to change, but in all honesty, I haven't found many vegetarian recipes that I like. I would not consider veganism, as I disagree with many of the principles involved, and if I'm drinking milk, eating cheese and wearing leather, I may as well utilize the full animal and eat the meat. Buying from an eco-friendly local butcher would be ideal, but as I said before is cost prohibitive.

I am conscious of the environment. I use secondhand clothing and items, maximalize use of everything we own, walk where possible, buy locally where possible, recycle, use eco-cycles on my washing machine and dishwasher, don't use disposable sanitary products, and conserve water with short showers twice per week and bathing the children together twice per week. Until big businesses and governments face up to the massive impact of their actions, I don't think changing anything else that my family does is worth the sacrifice in the grand scheme of things.

greenspaceplace · 11/05/2023 09:32

That book sounds great, I'm currently in the middle of the secret life of trees and it's really changed the way I view them. Not quite on topic but if you're feeling down, trees love eachother haha 😆

OP posts:
Daftasabroom · 11/05/2023 09:49

user4750 · 11/05/2023 09:25

Unfortunately the batteries in EV cars last on average 10 years (to the extent that they can be used in the car). They then need replacing which whacks up their carbon footprint massively.

None of these issues are simple. I can recommend the book "How Bad are Bananas" its really well written and a fascinating read and it helps you to work through some of these dilemmas with properly researched facts and calculations carried out by a world leading scientist in this field (who is also British).

If you download the Polestar EPDs there's a really good comparison of ICE and EV carbon footprint. Current batteries have lifespan of 100,000 to 200,000 miles and can still be repurposed. So pretty much the same as a diesel.

Daftasabroom · 11/05/2023 09:53

@user4750 a quick google shows the battery warranty is generally 100,000 miles not the lifespan.

Gtsr443 · 11/05/2023 09:56

I'm still trying to get my head round the fact that 2 fossil fuel fields in Turkmenistan created more global heating than the UK's entire carbon emissions in 2022.
We really are pissing in the wind.

I focus on personal plastic use, not pruning shrubs & hedges at wrong time of year, not over weeding, not using weed killer, encouraging pollinators etc.
We're not materialistic and have always been frugal with clothing and will make do and mend everything. Been veggy all my life.
If our rural public transport were better we'd use it all the time but without our car we are stuck.
We live in an AONB and the health of our rivers and waterways is of primary importance particularly as our Tory wanker MP has just voted against restrictions on water companies.

JuneShitfield · 11/05/2023 10:01

I recycle, I vote for parties/candidates who have clear renewables/progressive environmental policies, I don't have kids, and I try to make things last. Beyond that I don't worry about it much.

user4750 · 11/05/2023 10:21

Daftasabroom · 11/05/2023 09:53

@user4750 a quick google shows the battery warranty is generally 100,000 miles not the lifespan.

Aka an average of ten years.. if you do 10,000 miles a year after ten years you’re at 100,000 miles.

Clearly there will be differences between users which is why you can only look at averages.

im all for electric cars but the carbon footprint issue is not simple

user4750 · 11/05/2023 10:22

Oh sorry I misread. I will find the stats for you. The reason the warranty is 100,000 miles is because that’s when the degradation issues set in. Most people of course do more than 10,000 miles a year so will reach 100,000 miles before ten years have passed

MintJulia · 11/05/2023 10:47

And to be fair, my last diesel did 243,000 miles before I sold it on with a full MOT. It is not unusual for some marques of diesel car to clock up half a million miles.

My current diesel is a Group 6 so as clean as they get, and is regularly serviced.

I'll move to an EV when I retire in a few years, and range/immediacy are not so essential.

cupofdecaf · 11/05/2023 10:57

We recycle what we can, buy second hand where we can, save rain water, reusable nappies, solar panels.
However public transport is rubbish where we live. Even when we lived in a city it was slow and unreliable.
Recycling some plastics is difficult and needs improving.
The amount we put in landfill or burn makes me cringe, everything I throw away but the recycling just isn't there.
People in older houses (not us but we know plenty) need help insulating in a way that's cost effective and won't cause damp.
We have a hybrid but would like our next car to be electric. I'm concerned about the metals used in the batteries. There also needs to be many more public charging points and they need to charge faster. We tried an electric car a couple of years ago and charging it was a bit of a flop.

Scalottia · 11/05/2023 11:28

Poursomesugaronme88 · 10/05/2023 10:20

Disposable nappies should be fully biodegradable as standard and not cost more than others. Same for baby wipes

Better yet, have fewer kids. Or at least stop using so many baby wipes and disposable nappies.

Neededanewuserhandle · 11/05/2023 11:34

Daftasabroom · 11/05/2023 09:16

Source = DEFRA, Cambridge University, KCL etc. There are a lot of peer reviewed studies. 40,000 is one of the higher estimates (root mean square) but not the highest, 28,000 is the lowest.

Why would an EV last 10 years if diesel car lasts 20? That makes no sense.

The 40K deaths is being repeatedly misrepresented on this thread.
It's a decent study but it is NOT 40K deaths from diesel cars.

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