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Original poster

Voting ID is a nonsense

217 replies

Cranmer · 04/05/2023 21:01

They asked to see my ID at the polling station door, but I went to the desk and could have said I was anyone. Should they not check it against your name and address, not just randomly look at the picture at the door?

All this does is put people off voting as they can't be bothered to get their passport out the drawer. Grrrrr

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
cakeorwine · 05/05/2023 08:27

ObfuscationWithMenaces · 05/05/2023 05:11

Oh, of coure, 'press speculatio'. How silly of me.

And of course, just because "all pensioners vote Tory" and "all students potentiall vote Labour," there is clearly a problem
Dear God, do you base all your opinions on press speculation?

Show quote history

Binary thinking there.

However, older people are more likely to vote Conservative
Younger people are less likely to vote Conservative

I wonder what changes will take place with the type of photo ID needed before the next election?

DonnaBanana · 05/05/2023 08:32

I will not vote until they get rid of this silly needless rule

SinnerBoy · 05/05/2023 08:34

loislovesstewie· Today 07:25

I have worked as a poll clerk on numerous occasions. You might think that fraud in elections does not exist but I can assure you that it does. There may not be many prosecutions but I have had people try to vote for siblings, parents for adult children etc.

And you caught them and explained that it's not allowed. Actual cases of personation, where people vote, are very rare.

At the last GE, a few people were arrested and mostly not charged, because the Police found that they genuinely didn't realise that they weren't allowed to cast their sick relative's vote.

cakeorwine · 05/05/2023 08:41

I wonder how much "power" will go to people's heads and who will be more difficult with some people who present ID compared to others.

If someone refuses to accept what is valid ID - what can you do about it?

loislovesstewie · 05/05/2023 08:46

How do you know that people haven't successfully impersonated though? I mean that's the whole point isn't it? The fact that a few were challenged successfully doesn't get away from the fact that some won't be challenged and will then vote. Me asking if they are sure that they are Mr X ( for example) was enough to rattle them, but a more confident person would reply in the affirmative. It's very hard to prove when you are dealing with a voter that they are misrepresenting.
As I said, I'm in favour of everyone having an ID card. It would solve lots of issues.,including people who need to provide ID for other purposes.

SorePaw · 05/05/2023 08:48

Khara · 05/05/2023 07:08

They messed it up at my polling station. They told ds2 he'd already voted when he went with me in the afternoon. Turns out they'd crossed off his name instead of my ds1's when he went earlier despite ds1 showing id (driving licence).

They checked and could see that it said ds2 had voted and ds1 had not. I knew ds1 had already voted because I'd offered him a lift to the polling station with us but he said he'd already been.

I preferred the olden days when you could see the list as they crossed off your name with a pencil. At least you could see they'd got the right one. I remember once having to stop them crossing off my husband's name instead of mine.

@Khara

how does yours do it now (other than badly!!)?

ours still has the 'book' and uses a pencil & ruler to cross you out! 😊

I think the two women doing it yesterday are new, they were flustered and the lad making sure you put the green paper in the green bin & the white in the white was almost asleep.

sad as it is, I'm looking forward to getting the results.

Deadpalm · 05/05/2023 09:24

I am always curious how come everyone is sure the fraud is basically non existent when there were basically no checks? I could have turned up and vote as someone else before because they just used to aak name and part of address. That's incredibly easy info to find.
So how is everyone sure there was no fraud? How was that checked?
I never understood that

wildfirewonder · 05/05/2023 09:44

Deadpalm · 05/05/2023 09:24

I am always curious how come everyone is sure the fraud is basically non existent when there were basically no checks? I could have turned up and vote as someone else before because they just used to aak name and part of address. That's incredibly easy info to find.
So how is everyone sure there was no fraud? How was that checked?
I never understood that

It is checked by the councils and the parties.

The council marks off who voted. The parties keep track by phoning around. If the two don't match you'd soon know. Committing mass fraud is very obvious. There is no evidence it is happening. If there was fraud we'd know. It is easy to investigate, we have CCTV on most polling stations now.

'Voter fraud' is basically a conspiracy theory.

wildfirewonder · 05/05/2023 09:48

BeautifulWar · 05/05/2023 07:27

of course it is, the Torys bought it in to try and exclude people who may vote Labour, but now the hard-right press are complaining it might deter older votes who tend to vote Tory!

Nothing to do with fraud then? This case was highly publicised enough.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-47535867

This was postal voting? The id rule unchanged for that.

The id change is targeting the fictional issue of personation.

Frabbits · 05/05/2023 09:51

Deadpalm · 05/05/2023 09:24

I am always curious how come everyone is sure the fraud is basically non existent when there were basically no checks? I could have turned up and vote as someone else before because they just used to aak name and part of address. That's incredibly easy info to find.
So how is everyone sure there was no fraud? How was that checked?
I never understood that

Because, if there was widespread fraud that would be detectable by both anomalies in voting patterns and large numbers of reports of people having their votes already used by the time they go to the polls.

Truth is, there were 33 suspected cases of in-person voting fraud at the 2019 GE. Does that warrant nearly £200 million and an additional barrier to universal suffrage, do you think?

Deadpalm · 05/05/2023 10:01

wildfirewonder · 05/05/2023 09:44

It is checked by the councils and the parties.

The council marks off who voted. The parties keep track by phoning around. If the two don't match you'd soon know. Committing mass fraud is very obvious. There is no evidence it is happening. If there was fraud we'd know. It is easy to investigate, we have CCTV on most polling stations now.

'Voter fraud' is basically a conspiracy theory.

Show quote history

No one ever called me. Is that just some random selections they call?

The issue I wonder about is,
Many people don't vote, it's easy to go and just say you are someone else. In 4+ elections here no one ever properly checked who am I, nor has anyone checked after if it was me who voted. I could very easily go to another ward and say I am X (my friend who I know won't be voting) and no one would stop me. I could do that in quite a few wards. How would they stop me? I say "my" name and address, that's it. How would anyone know I did it? I would have to be pretty unlucky for my friend to get phone call? I mean if course there is no evidence happening. I can't see how they would actually get the evidence?

So how can anyone confirm actual levels of voter fraud? Mind me I am not arguing about how much is or is not there. I am just not understanding how can someone confidently say there is none (or x)

WeWereInParis · 05/05/2023 10:04

There has been loads of advertising.

I haven't actually seen that much really, I hope for the general election there is more. And there have also been Tory leaflets sent out stating you don't need ID (they did apologise when they were -caught- made aware of the genuine error).

Deadpalm · 05/05/2023 10:04

Because, if there was widespread fraud that would be detectable by both anomalies in voting patterns and large numbers of reports of people having their votes already used by the time they go to the polls.

Does it have to be widespread for it to be considered an issue? One seat was won by 16 votes not far from me. Few votes can make difference to control by one party, no control and control by another. It doesn't have to be hundreds of votes in one area, which would then be probably detectable. But would anyone actually check with each voter then?

Frabbits · 05/05/2023 10:13

Deadpalm · 05/05/2023 10:04

Because, if there was widespread fraud that would be detectable by both anomalies in voting patterns and large numbers of reports of people having their votes already used by the time they go to the polls.

Does it have to be widespread for it to be considered an issue? One seat was won by 16 votes not far from me. Few votes can make difference to control by one party, no control and control by another. It doesn't have to be hundreds of votes in one area, which would then be probably detectable. But would anyone actually check with each voter then?

Well, if you are going to spend millions of pounds on a scheme which makes voting harder, then yes, there does need to be evidence that the problem that said scheme is supposed to prevent is actually an issue.

There are plenty of reports from yesterday of people either not knowing they needed ID, being turned away for not having the correct ID or even that they did have ID but they were turned away anyway. That would make a much larger difference in marginal seats than non-existent fraud.

Burningdownthehouse · 05/05/2023 10:16

Older people only have a hard copy of the bus pass but younger people can have hard copy or digital. The Gov thought it'd be confusing to say young person travel card but only if a hard copy.

It's all new and polling staff are working out the best way to go about it.
I worked at a polling station yesterday & we checked ID, then asked the name / address then handed ballot paper, all at the main table. It worked pretty well.

I presume where people were on the door checking, was to prevent someone wasting their time going in if they didnt have sufficient ID?? It's all trial & error and working out the best process.

Frabbits · 05/05/2023 10:18

"Working out the best process" and "it's all trial and error" should not be phrases in use when it comes to allowing people to exercise their right to vote though, should it?

beguilingeyes · 05/05/2023 10:22

My MIL (80) has never had a passport or a drivers licence. She will just not bother to go.

Ifailed · 05/05/2023 10:24

It's all trial & error and working out the best process.
I don't want the one chance I have every 4 years to influence whose going to be spending my money and exerting power over me to be subject to 'trial and error'.

KimberleyClark · 05/05/2023 10:24

I’m in Wales where local and Senedd elections don’t and will not require photo ID, only UK general elections.

loislovesstewie · 05/05/2023 10:25

BTW it's possible to have a postal vote for any reason. No ID required for that.

AuntieJune · 05/05/2023 10:25

It's absolute shite, there was negligible evidence of any voter fraud, denying people the right to vote because they forget to bring ID is much worse.

Thekirit · 05/05/2023 10:27

MaisieMay23 · 05/05/2023 05:32

The only one at the door was a Lib Dem bloke asking for poll card numbers. I don't know what he did if you didn't have it on you?

Show quote history

You don’t have to give the people on the door anything, including your voting reference.
Its the people inside that you do.

Burningdownthehouse · 05/05/2023 10:28

In our station everyone that came in to vote, voted bar 1 who had no ID and a number who came to the wrong station due to ward / boundary changes. That was the biggest issue, ID wasn't a problem, more needed to be advertised about poll station changes. This was fed back to the Council / Electoral commission.
No one should be turned away for an Irish passport!! If they were unsure the staff should've checked with there elections team! Easy to do. Not turn people away.

Justdonenow · 05/05/2023 10:30

Brings the rest of the UK in line with Norther Ireland where you have needed ID for a while. I am not sure why we accept the idea that there might be voter fraud in Northern Ireland but the rest of the UK is above such things!!!

I don’t think one polling station not understanding the rules correctly is an argument for not doing it at all. My local corner shop has been known to not ID kids buying alcohol- it doesn’t mean we get rid of the requirement everywhere else!!!

wildfirewonder · 05/05/2023 10:36

Deadpalm · 05/05/2023 10:04

Because, if there was widespread fraud that would be detectable by both anomalies in voting patterns and large numbers of reports of people having their votes already used by the time they go to the polls.

Does it have to be widespread for it to be considered an issue? One seat was won by 16 votes not far from me. Few votes can make difference to control by one party, no control and control by another. It doesn't have to be hundreds of votes in one area, which would then be probably detectable. But would anyone actually check with each voter then?

Please try to think rationally.

You would have to engage a considerable number of people in a conspiracy to ensure your preferred candidate would win - it simply isn't happening.

How do you recruit the people in the right area?
How do you ensure they don't tell anyone?
Are you paying them to do it? How much?
And if you do pay them to do it, what do you really stand to gain by doing so?

If you believe in widespread voter fraud by personation, you are a conspiracy theorist. Trump started this conspiracy theory, some in the Tory party picked it up, and the gullible have swallowed it.