Chimney and Neighbour

[scorpiogirly]

Hi all,

Posting here for advice.

Background, which I am not sure is relevant. Have lived here all my life. NDN was already here. I inherited the house from my mother who passed in 2013. Now live here alone with 4yo daughter.

Have always gotten on with neighbour. There was an issue when I was installing a fence but that's another post.

Anyway, I was outside last weekend mowing the garden. NDN came out and told me she had some bad news. Apparently the wall paper in one of her bedrooms is coming away from the wall. A 'friend' of her son has told her that the chimney (which we share) needs to come down completely and it's going to cost about £2k and in her words exactly, 'you're going to have to pay half'.

I told her that I would look into it. She asked if I had a gas fire, to which I replied yes. She has an electric one. So I said that the chimney is needed basically for the gas fire.

I carried on with the garden and she went inside. Less than 10 mins later, she came back out and said that she had just spoken to her son on the phone and that he said it's fine and I could just have a flue installed to accommodate the gas fire. She said it has to come down as it's all 'that black mortar'. Well of course it is considering that's what the house was build with.

Again I said I'd rather a repair and would look into it. She said to let her know.

A quick google told me a few things, one that having a chimney taken out can cause damp.

I have been avoiding her as much as possible as I don't know what to say. I absolutely hate confrontation of any kind.

I do not want my chimney taken down. But where do I go from here? I am worried about the damp issue. I don't have 1k to spend on that when I am not experiencing issues although would be happy to pay half on a repair? I am even needing to do that? For all I know the issue could be with her roof. The chimney is not falling apart. It seems pretty stable.

Also I am concerned that the house will look odd without a chimney. Will it affect the resale value? And obviously the cost to install a flue to use my gas fire will be extra cost and will be coming out of my pocket.

Any advise greatly appreciated.

Ask a builder or roofer to check the pointing and lead flashing around the chimney. They will usually inspect either up a ladder or using binoculars/ drone camera.

They'll stand on the pavement, glance up and give it a guess, if they're anything like the roofers I've asked for chimney-issue quotes 🙄

Still nothing to do with your insurer at this point.

If it gets to the point that you've got an independent opinion and you're then in disagreement with your neighbour about what's to be done, then it would be time to call in any optional legal expenses insurance you may have.

I have lived in and restored old building almost my entire life. So her chimney breast is damp, hence wallpaper coming away. This will be due to any or all of the following - chimney pots not capped at top and water getting into chimney, lead flashing around chimney in need of repairs, roof tiles around chimney in need of repair, chimney bricks needing repointing, disused chimney flues needing ventilation. I can 99.9% guarantee the chimney stack does not need to come down.

A lot of these things will be a fairly easy and inexpensive fix - depending whether you need scaffold to get up there. Another consideration is, depending on the issue, on what side is it occurring?

She can’t do any works without a party wall agreement anyway, and will have to pay for your surveyor in order to get one. Ask me anything you want, I feel like I’ve been through this a million times across the years!

@scorpiogirly

Do not let them railroad you into either having the chimney removed or a flue installed.

Chimney removal - they can remove their 'half' of the chimney but they have to make sure your 'half' is left safe, sound and secure. At their cost, not yours. Get it checked professionally after.

Flue installation - have your chimney checked properly. I assume you have your gas fire checked regularly? Usually a smoke test will be undertaken to make Sur ether chimney is clear and coping with any fire output. If any issue then I would hope your gas fitter would have recommended a flue before now.

Sounds like overkill for failing wallpaper.

Hi next NDN " I'm getting 3 separate builders around to access the work and see the prices " .
"Once that's done, I will fill you in on what the quotes are and any repairs needed to the chimney "

Get them to state the issue and get 3 quotes to repair (not remove the chimney)

So many replies, thank you all.

I am not sure whether she slipped up because she said 'son's names fiend' who he works with, then she said not works with, he is a proper roofer or words to that effect. I asked what his name was (I was going to look for reviews) but she didn't know.

The actual 'issue' hasn't even been stated. All she said was this bloke said it needs to come down, no mention of repair at all.

This issue is on her side, I can't see any issue here with leaks etc. Would I still be liable for costs if the issue is just on her side?

As others have said, DO NOT be coerced into allowing any work being done to your property which you don't want and which isn't necessary in the first place.

For a start, if the walls are fine on your side, it's much more likely to be a small, localised problem such as an issue with the pointing around the base of the stack, the flashing, loose roof tiles or even simply an uncapped pot allowing rain water down.

The chimney is a shared structure and they can't remove it without your consent. Moreover, it's often a structural support element of a house. Before a chimney or a chimney breast is removed, you need proper structural calculations by a qualified structural engineer, and building control sign off for everything. It's a complex job, and not one that can be done safely by a ham fisted DIYer. There are plenty of houses which have collapsed when even the professionals have got it wrong.

Your neighbour's claim regarding the origin of the problem with the chimney just doesn't stack up (sorry for that...). Our neighbours have used a very good roofer recently who helped me with a difficult element of part of ours as well. If you're around Northamptonshire somewhere, I could dig up his details. Otherwise, a trustworthy roofer would be the best person to be looking at that.

Depends on the origin of the cause. If the cause of her problem is negligence on your part, yes you would be, but barring that, no you wouldn't be liable for any cost to fix or repair any damage to her property.

Same with demolition of the chimney - there's no issue on your side so there's no reason for you to be spending any money to remove the chimney. If they want to remove the chimney on their side, they need to support the remaining structure and they would be liable for any damage caused to your chimney as a result of removing their side of the chimney. Even if you agree to the chimney being removed, you would be losing an amenity that you're using and enjoying, so instead of paying towards any costs, you should be compensated for loss of amenity as you are not experiencing any structural issues, you would be losing enjoyment of your property, and there could be a reduction in the value of your property due to the lack of a fireplace.

If she challenges you keep saying 'I'm looking into it, but it's not at the top of my list'. If she says anything about it being dangerous from her side ask to see her surveyors report as surely that's what she's working off, not the word of a friend of a friend, etc.? Don't be bullied into it!

Yes, this!

Most of the replies on here are way off the mark.

Guessing your house is 1920s to 50s?

Red brick chimney stack?

First of all, removing the stack, the bit that sticks up above the roof tiles, isn't a structural job.

It's likely the mortar has failed and allowing water to pass between the bricks on the windward side of the property. Which is why most chimney leaks only affect one property. Uncovered pots don't usually let in vast quantities of water, and you'd notice pooling at the base/firebox way before you'd have penetrating damp on the chimney breast.

If the mortar has failed, which is expected on an old property, then the stack will have to come down. You can rebuild it, but that will cost way more than installing a gas flue.

Bear in mind OP, that if the mortar has failed, the stack could collapse without warning. A tonne of bricks crashing through your bedroom ceiling isn't fun.

DO NOT faff about worrying about cost, get the stack inspected ASAP. This isn't something you can ignore unfortunately.

We had a chimney removed about five years ago from our old house. Total cost was £600. Maybe I'm naive but 2k sounds and awful lot.

• the stack on the roof only and it was retiled and reridged.

Your liabilities will be in your deeds. I live in a four in a block. We are each liable for a quarter of any roof repairs no matter where on the roof they ate.

Why would you get someone out?

She says there is a problem - so she can arrange for a professional qualified person to come round. Once they have, ask for their findings in writing alongside proposed recommendations for fixing it. Once you have this you can then decide whether you like the proposed solutions and also if you have any liability to contribute to them. I wouldn't think that you would.

She's chancing her arm and hoping you are an easy push over. She probably needs work done on her side and is hoping she can force you into paying half so she can reduce her bill despite you not benefitting from it at all.

When she next speaks to you tell her that until she can provide information for a professional builder/roofer etc in writing then there is nothing more to discuss. And stand firm - dont give in.

Good luck

As others have said, do not be railroaded into agreeing to anything. There are Building Regulations around chimneys and especially those with gas flues.
Please get a recommended builder and a HETAS engineer to advise you before doing anything.
we have removed a very, very, tall chimney stack, albeit on a detached house. It involved scaffolding, the building inspector and a HETAS engineer to put in the replacement flue. The cost was about £2000 about 5 years ago and in a rural area.

@scorpiogirly also it's entirely possible that the flashing and pointing might have deteriorated on one side only (probably the south and west sides)

^This. Don’t look into it by a “quick google”, get the chimney stack inspected by a professional that you trust.

I’d get my own person out because it’s all too easy for son’s mate what is a roofer to get another roofer mate to write up a very official looking statement and then throw an extra £1k on there to kick back £500 to NDN and son as a referral/finders “fee.”

OP should get her own professional advisor on the chimney.

Tell her you always get a few independent opinions before getting any work done. ask for a copy of the report from the roofer stating the reason for the issue and a breakdown of the quote as you dont quite understand the actual issue with the chimney and want to check the nature of the problem and see whether it could be repaired first. There are a lot of options between 'chimney' and 'no chimney' that could resolve a damp issue so tell her you sympathise with the issue and want to look at all the options. Then get a roofer in from check a trade or personal recommendation from someone local

The stack doesn’t have to come down for deterioration of mortar. It can be repointed.

It’s probably some some rain getting in through missing mortar, hence it just needs re mortaring the joints.
Or some flashing has come loose and just needs a fix.

There is absolutely no need whatsoever to take a chimney down!

When you get a professional round, if you’re looking at prices make sure you get someone that doesn’t need full scaffolding. It costs a lot more. Plus take as many pictures of the chimney and surrounding roof before he visits. Zoom lense and all that.

Ditch the ‘son’s friend’. He ain’t coming near it. They could be fleecing you.
I would expect only the stack to be shared and not the ‘chimney’. You should have separate flues. In theory, you NDN should be able to take theirs down and leave yours in place. They would need to do it properly and they would have to pay to employ Party Wall Surveyor on your behalf. You can appoint the Surveyor. NDN has to pay.

If you decide to get anyone out to look at it, do not get a trades man. You need to contact a Chartered Surveyor, and then check they are registered on the RICS website. Though I would be telling your neighbour she needs to organise them and not you. Your NDN needs to pay them. Not you. Not halves. Not your problem.

I wouldn’t want a flue either. You already have a chimney that works fine.

As PP have said, this is just a chimney / roof repair. She may not have capped it off properly, therefore moisture could be entering the chimney. It could be the flashing or maybe the brick work needs pointing and some brick repairs.

The fact you don’t like conflict puts you in an awful position where your anxiety must be through the roof, but I really hope you stand firm. If it were me, I’d be telling them I ain’t parting with any money. Your damp, your problem. However, it isn’t me. So maybe write a letter addressed to your neighbour outlining the following:

I will not be parting with any money. Be direct with that statement. She needs to know that her efforts will be futile.
Suggest that she should contact her insurer, who will probably tell her it’s a maintenance issue.
Point out the law regarding The Party Wall Act 1996. It may not apply if she has her stack or roof repaired, but probably will if she takes the chimney stack out.
State that you will not be removing your chimney stack.
Do not agree to going halves on anything.
Tell her she needs to appoint a Chartered Surveyor before she carries out any works.
And state again, that you will not be parting with any money. Put that in at least twice. You need to drive that message home.

Your neighbour has a problem, and is pissed off that it’s affecting her and not you. She now wants to share that problem and the cost with you. She only cares about herself and her money.

Sadly this is likely to sour the relationship but I’d rather that, than let some bodger loose in my house and have to pay a grand for the privilege. Also, there will be other costs. I’d imagine Building Control would need to be involved and your new flue and the making good and redecoration that will go with it. And the mess!!!

Goodluck OP

I would be concerned that she will get the work done, possibly when you are out. You need to put (in writing) that you do not consent for the chimney to be removed and if she touches your shared structure you will take legal action.