Page 4 | Canada’s euthanasia for the mentally ill

Noicant · 2023-05-01T07:34:48+00:00

[[https://globalnews.ca/news/9454089/medically-assisted-dying-bill-mental-disorder/ https://globalnews.ca/news/9454089/medically-assisted-dying-bill-mental-disorder/]] Canada is in the process of introducing the option of Euthanasia for the mentally ill. It looks like this has been delayed for the time being but AIBU to find this concerning? Just to be clear I fully support euthanasia as an option for people with terminal or chronic conditions. I think it’s human to offer people a peaceful death when there is no chance of things improving. BUT this seems utterly mad to me. I’ve suffered from poor mental health in the past and only started feeling better after going through a few therapists and finding the right one. There were many times over 20years where I would have happily signed up for death. If someone is so ill that they are very impaired by their condition are they truly competent to make a decision like this and if it’s milder isn’t there a possibility of recovery? It seems utterly dystopian. I guess I’m looking for someone to help me understand if I’ve missed something or not understood something that will help me understand why anyone would think this is a good idea.

pointythings · 01/05/2023 10:24

@SwitchDiver I actually don't respect your opinions, because you do not respect mine. You refuse to accept that mentally ill people are capable of consenting to an assisted suicide just because they are mentally ill. Your assumptions about mental illness and capacity are based on your own experiences and you are unable to accept that other people will have very different perceptions and experiences. What you post is just that - opinion and nothing more. You offer no answers to the hard question, which as always is: how long do we leave people with severe and enduring mental ill health to suffer before we accept their choice to not live?

You also do not offer any answers to the questions around the impact of suicide on others.

Original poster

Noicant · 01/05/2023 10:26

SwitchDiver · 01/05/2023 10:22

“But the fact is that some people will never have happiness and recovery. Why is it acceptable that they should be made to live like that forever, or be driven to commit suicide in a way that has an awful impact on people around them, causing trauma to others?”

Because doctors don’t know which of the mentally ill fall into the never recover, never feel happiness category. The patients themselves don’t know, how could they?

Yes exactly my point.

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Sudeko · 01/05/2023 10:26

There are not many people who enter and remain in a constantly suicidal state. There are far more who go on to recover and then look back on those dark times and feel grateful to have come through to the other side to a better place. It is placing too much responsibility upon the shoulders of people with impaired decision making to claim that they are capable of making the correct decision with no last minute remorse.

Infact, there was a very harrowing case of a young man in the UK who took that suicide drug (which cannot be legally named online ) which he would have ordered by post (possibly from Canada, I cannot recall). He ran towards his mother and was screaming that he wanted to live and wanted to choose life but he had already ingested a deadly quantity. It reflects sloppy MH care to entrust the vulnerable with the decision to choose a quick fix which runs counter to their true welfare needs, just to lower the burden on a failing system.

Somanycats · 01/05/2023 10:27

pointythings · 01/05/2023 09:19

I'm with @DisquietintheRanks . It's cruel to dangle the carrot of hope in front of someone with severe and enduring mental illness. Nobody ever answers the question of how long you want to force people to suffer, take heavy medication which still doesn't work, be constantly watched, be forcibly admitted to inpatient units. For some people there is no recovery and we have to accept that. I'm from the Netherlands which already allows assisted dying for people who are mentally ill. There have been very few cases because the process is incredibly strictly managed, but the option is there. That's as it should be.

It is also incredibly patronising to assume that someone who is mentally ill cannot consent to assisted dying. Everyone who makes this point should read up on the Mental Capacity Act and the Mental Health Act - you'll find it isn't nearly as simple as you think.

Yes. Exactly. Fiction of course, but if you have read A little Life, why would you not let Jude have this option? Death is not always the most painful option. Life is unbearable for some people. Unrelentingly so. We should not have the right to keep inflicting life on them. And if you cannot imagine how terrible being alive can be, you/we are very privileged

Original poster

Noicant · 01/05/2023 10:29

pointythings · 01/05/2023 10:24

@SwitchDiver I actually don't respect your opinions, because you do not respect mine. You refuse to accept that mentally ill people are capable of consenting to an assisted suicide just because they are mentally ill. Your assumptions about mental illness and capacity are based on your own experiences and you are unable to accept that other people will have very different perceptions and experiences. What you post is just that - opinion and nothing more. You offer no answers to the hard question, which as always is: how long do we leave people with severe and enduring mental ill health to suffer before we accept their choice to not live?

You also do not offer any answers to the questions around the impact of suicide on others.

Genuine question, how long would you consider enough time being ill before euthansia should be realistically considered as a viable option for someone? A year? 5 years? This isn’t an attack I really am trying to understand. I do have sympathy with your position btw I really do. My fear is that we get it wrong.

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pimplebum · 01/05/2023 10:30

Equality I suppose means just that ?
A mentally ill person may want a peaceful end from the endless torment, especially if they know it's terminal ... yes it's sad and troubling but so is schizophrenia

ShimmeringShirts · 01/05/2023 10:31

@pointythings analysing the impact of suicide on others that are still alive is an incredibly selfish thing to do. A person should not have to live just to make another person happy, a person should not have to endure decades of illness to make another person happy. You are saying that their life is more important than the non life someone with permanent mental health issues.

You might love life, but not everyone does. You might see living as more important than anything else but that’s because you’ve not experienced what it’s like to suffer consistently and constantly. You do not get to make that choice for others.

LakeTiticaca · 01/05/2023 10:32

I watched my mother struggle with vascular dementia for years. She had already declined surgery for a heart complaint that would have extended her life by at least 5 years (she made this decision when she still had capacity)
If my mother had been able to foresee the suffering she would have to endure I feel sure she would have opted for euthanasia had it been available.

I sure as hell will if and when the need arises

pimplebum · 01/05/2023 10:33

I cannot think of one mental illness that is “severely life limiting” with treatment.

Ummmm I am guessing you don't suffer with long term MH issues ?

MrsEdnaWelthorpe · 01/05/2023 10:34

pointythings · 01/05/2023 09:49

@Noicant and @SwitchDiver I do understand your personal concerns. I've worked in mental health for many years. However, when these threads come up it's always in the light of the Canadian approach to this. The Canadian approach is bad, it has insufficient safeguards, it is ill thought through. But other models are available.

I had a cousin in the Netherlands who had psychosis. Nothing helped him. He killed himself by jumping off a block of flats, to the immense distress of the people who witnessed it. This included children. Is that better than offering a way out? Where I grew up there was a stretch of train track that was notorious for suicides. It was horrific for the train drivers. Is that better than offering a way out?

I think broadly speaking the Netherlands has it right. It isn't perfect, but it's a hell of a lot better than leaving people permanently stuck in a life with little or no hope.

My main concerns about introducing assisted dying in the UK is that we have a government that only cares about money and selling stuff off to their wealthy friends. I'd like to see that change, and then I'd like to see the introduction of PR, before we take action on assisted dying. But I have no issues with AD itself, if done properly.

Speaking from personal experience. I have a diagnosis of a severe mental illness (schizophrenia), and over the years I have been very unwell. But I have also received very inadequate support and help. And currently I am doing well. But the thought that there are people working in mental health, like yourself pointythings, who would support me being euthanised, is terrifying. Hopefully I never end up being sectioned again, because the thought of there being staff like yourself on a ward I find really disturbing. I do not want mental health professionals feeling my life isn't worth anything, thanks.

Original poster

Noicant · 01/05/2023 10:35

LakeTiticaca · 01/05/2023 10:32

I watched my mother struggle with vascular dementia for years. She had already declined surgery for a heart complaint that would have extended her life by at least 5 years (she made this decision when she still had capacity)
If my mother had been able to foresee the suffering she would have to endure I feel sure she would have opted for euthanasia had it been available.

I sure as hell will if and when the need arises

Yes I support Euthansia in those circumstances. I would want the option myself.

Just to be clear I am not anti- euthanasia, I think it’s an act of compassion in many circumstances.

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SwitchDiver · 01/05/2023 10:35

pointythings · 01/05/2023 10:24

@SwitchDiver I actually don't respect your opinions, because you do not respect mine. You refuse to accept that mentally ill people are capable of consenting to an assisted suicide just because they are mentally ill. Your assumptions about mental illness and capacity are based on your own experiences and you are unable to accept that other people will have very different perceptions and experiences. What you post is just that - opinion and nothing more. You offer no answers to the hard question, which as always is: how long do we leave people with severe and enduring mental ill health to suffer before we accept their choice to not live?

You also do not offer any answers to the questions around the impact of suicide on others.

I have respected your opinions. The most I have called your opinion is “pessimistic” because it was. Other than that I have gently pointed out that your accusations of “arrogant assumptions” and so on are incorrect.

I answered your “hard questions” in regards to how agency and choice are not clear cut when you are seriously mentally ill. Ignored by you. I answer on the suffering issue- truth is no one knows how long a person may suffer or if they will get to a period free of suffering. Even the pp who suffers horribly every day is actively choosing not to die so you going on about suffering like that means a person should just go and die is off putting.

It’s obvious you have no respect for others opinions, especially those of us who have mental health conditions and direct lived experience of being suicidal. You put a lot of stock into testimonials you have read but none into our own testimonials.

SwitchDiver · 01/05/2023 10:35

pimplebum · 01/05/2023 10:33

I cannot think of one mental illness that is “severely life limiting” with treatment.

Ummmm I am guessing you don't suffer with long term MH issues ?

🙄 I do in fact. Have a read of my other posts xx

pointythings · 01/05/2023 10:36

@Noicant I don't know. I don't have that answer, I would want it to be arrived at by people who have expert knowledge in the field of mental health. These would have to include people who have all the data on recovery rates for people with severe and enduring mental illness - that data is out there, I've spent enough time working in MH research to know that. It would not be a quick or overnight decision. It would also not be a black and white rule book, you'd have to look at the full range of mental illnesses and the prognosis where there are comorbidities.

I'd like an answer too, especially from the 'no, never' people on this thread - because they seem to think that leaving someone for decades is just fine. Some people seem unable to see that there are times when hope is a stick that you beat people with. This is never going to be a simple matter to resolve, the ethics are enormously complex. I certainly would not want euthanasia for mental health to be handed out like sweeties; the threshold needs to be high. But saying we should never do it because people who are mentally ill cannot consent is wrong.

SwitchDiver · 01/05/2023 10:37

Sudeko · 01/05/2023 10:26

There are not many people who enter and remain in a constantly suicidal state. There are far more who go on to recover and then look back on those dark times and feel grateful to have come through to the other side to a better place. It is placing too much responsibility upon the shoulders of people with impaired decision making to claim that they are capable of making the correct decision with no last minute remorse.

Infact, there was a very harrowing case of a young man in the UK who took that suicide drug (which cannot be legally named online ) which he would have ordered by post (possibly from Canada, I cannot recall). He ran towards his mother and was screaming that he wanted to live and wanted to choose life but he had already ingested a deadly quantity. It reflects sloppy MH care to entrust the vulnerable with the decision to choose a quick fix which runs counter to their true welfare needs, just to lower the burden on a failing system.

Yes, A&E regularly gets patients presenting after having taken an overdose and then suddenly realising what they’ve done.

Original poster

Noicant · 01/05/2023 10:38

pointythings · 01/05/2023 10:36

@Noicant I don't know. I don't have that answer, I would want it to be arrived at by people who have expert knowledge in the field of mental health. These would have to include people who have all the data on recovery rates for people with severe and enduring mental illness - that data is out there, I've spent enough time working in MH research to know that. It would not be a quick or overnight decision. It would also not be a black and white rule book, you'd have to look at the full range of mental illnesses and the prognosis where there are comorbidities.

I'd like an answer too, especially from the 'no, never' people on this thread - because they seem to think that leaving someone for decades is just fine. Some people seem unable to see that there are times when hope is a stick that you beat people with. This is never going to be a simple matter to resolve, the ethics are enormously complex. I certainly would not want euthanasia for mental health to be handed out like sweeties; the threshold needs to be high. But saying we should never do it because people who are mentally ill cannot consent is wrong.

Thank you for the considered response.

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Comedycook · 01/05/2023 10:39

Noicant · 01/05/2023 10:18

Because in certain situations the only way is down.

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Well you've totally misunderstood me.

I can see plenty of situations both mental and physical were death would be preferable...but, im against euthanasia because of the possibility of coercion and mistakes happening as well as the perimeters getting wider and wider.

OhmygodDont · 01/05/2023 10:42

Everyone who wants to use use a service should be allowed to. It’s their bodies their lives, it’s a non traumatic death.

It’s all good and well saying people have bodily autonomy but then go oh yeah but actually no not you, you don’t fit the list sorry bye.

For them to then possibly kill themselves in a horrid way that’s also traumatic for others isn’t the right answer either it.

People are made to stay alive when they don’t want to or kill the selfs in some terrible ways that’s not humane.

SwitchDiver · 01/05/2023 10:43

“I would want it to be arrived at by people who have expert knowledge in the field of mental health. These would have to include people who have all the data on recovery rates for people with severe and enduring mental illness - that data is out there, I've spent enough time working in MH research to know that. It would not be a quick or overnight decision. It would also not be a black and white rule book, you'd have to look at the full range of mental illnesses and the prognosis where there are comorbidities.”

So what you are describing is a mathematical algorithm that assesses a patients likelihood of recovery or death based on past patients. When we leave it up to mathematical models you know what happens? We do an algorithm and a computer says yes or no. You know what would happen over time if euthanasia were then encouraged and this data were updated?

hereiamagainn · 01/05/2023 10:43

Quite honestly, I feel that anyone should have the freedom to opt out of this life safely and legally. It would be awful, there would no doubt be thousands of deaths, but it would force us to take a good long look at our society and make changes that would make life more tolerable and, dare I say it, enjoyable. We are not developing in a way that is conducive to good mental health and legalising suicide would force change for the better, long term, imo.

PumpkinsAndCoconuts · 01/05/2023 10:44

maddening · 01/05/2023 09:23

It was a disabled athlete asking for a wheelchair lift
https://nypost.com/2022/12/03/canada-offered-to-help-euthanize-christine-gauthier/

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wtf did I just read!

pointythings · 01/05/2023 10:45

@MrsEdnaWelthorpe I wouldn't support you being euthanised! You have said yourself that you have had periods when you are well. That in itself is enough to rule you out.

But there are people who never have periods when they are well. The option should be there for them, under extremely tough regulation.

@SwitchDiver I do not accept that you respect my opinions. I just don't, simply because your position is set in stone and it is that a person with mental ill health never has capacity to make the choice to end their life. I vehemently disagree with that opinion. You are of course free to hold it, but that freedom has consequences - those consequences will include suicide and its traumatic impact on others.

I have been fortunate enough not to have experienced mental ill health myself, but as I have described above, I have experienced the impact it has had on members of my family, one of whom took his own life in a violent and traumatic manner. Dismissing my experiences, such as they are, is disrespectful.

I put equal stock in your testimonials and in those that disagree with you. I don't want people euthanised willy-nilly, but I do want people to have agency.

You and I will not agree.

MrsEdnaWelthorpe · 01/05/2023 10:46

StressedToTheMaxxx · 01/05/2023 10:13

There are some mental illnesses that are treatment resistant. Sadly, some folk with severe mental illness have no quality of life, none whatsoever.

As a mental health nurse, I've worked with some patients who have been under the services for years, in and out of hospital. Even at their best, they barely function. I'm talking mainly about the likes of chronic schizophrenia. Of course many people with this condition live very meaningful lives, with the correct treatment regime and support. But yes, there are those who don't have a quality of life (and not just in my opinion, in their own opinions).

It's something that would have to be assessed very very carefully and on a case by case basis. I can understand the controversy. But I can also understand why some people who live daily with such a torturous illness wouldn't want to go on.

It's certainly a very thought provoking argument.

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Please get a different job @StressedToTheMaxxx . I don't want to be forced to work with mh staff who would be happy to see me euthanised.

Comedycook · 01/05/2023 10:46

OhmygodDont · 01/05/2023 10:42

Everyone who wants to use use a service should be allowed to. It’s their bodies their lives, it’s a non traumatic death.

It’s all good and well saying people have bodily autonomy but then go oh yeah but actually no not you, you don’t fit the list sorry bye.

For them to then possibly kill themselves in a horrid way that’s also traumatic for others isn’t the right answer either it.

People are made to stay alive when they don’t want to or kill the selfs in some terrible ways that’s not humane.

Whilst I can see the argument for this from a theoretical perspective...the reality would be very frightening. Coercion would be a real concern and if you wanted to catastrophise what if we ended up in a place were people with certain conditions were immediately assumed to do this.

Mooshamoo · 01/05/2023 10:46

I agree with it. If a person is in terrible mental suffering, I think that they should be allowed to do it.