Canada’s euthanasia for the mentally ill

[Noicant]

https://globalnews.ca/news/9454089/medically-assisted-dying-bill-mental-disorder/

Canada is in the process of introducing the option of Euthanasia for the mentally ill. It looks like this has been delayed for the time being but AIBU to find this concerning?

Just to be clear I fully support euthanasia as an option for people with terminal or chronic conditions. I think it’s human to offer people a peaceful death when there is no chance of things improving.

BUT this seems utterly mad to me. I’ve suffered from poor mental health in the past and only started feeling better after going through a few therapists and finding the right one. There were many times over 20years where I would have happily signed up for death. If someone is so ill that they are very impaired by their condition are they truly competent to make a decision like this and if it’s milder isn’t there a possibility of recovery?

It seems utterly dystopian. I guess I’m looking for someone to help me understand if I’ve missed something or not understood something that will help me understand why anyone would think this is a good idea.

No, that’s not it at all. The point is that mental illness impairs your ability to choose what you want. In many cases, mental illness compels you to think and do things that you do not want but you are powerless to do anything. Mental illness robs you of your agency and your ability to choose. Asking mentally ill people to consent to their own murder is taking advantage of the fact they are not at full mental capacity. I’m not disrespecting anyone, and I have read the testimonials and what I see is a medical system giving up and convincing a vulnerable ill patient that everyone would be better off if they ended their life. It’s heartbreaking.

How would people feel if it was their child choosing to die because of mental illness. Should there be a minimum age?

I don't think there should be a minimum age, I think there should be medical scrutiny. Going back to the case of Noa Pothoven, who was 17 when she died (but did not receive euthanasia) in the Netherlands, this was a young woman whose life had been marked by massive trauma and mental illness. I would recommend that anyone who opposes assisted dying for mental illness read her testimonials online (most are in Dutch but translation software is there for you to use). Other cases and testimonials are also there for you to read.

I understand it is enormously emotive, but I have a child with mental illness. We've recently had a suicide scare because of an adverse reaction to new medication. It was terrifying. Right now my DC is well, enjoying life, but the fear is always there. However, my DC is an adult. It is not for me to decide what they do with their life, it's for them.

what I see is a medical system giving up and convincing a vulnerable ill patient that everyone would be better off if they ended their life. It’s heartbreaking.

You are clearly unable to see past your own experience. You assume that everyone who feels this way must have been influenced by 'the medical system'.

That view is arrogant and presumptuous. You are not the only person who has a child with serious mental illness. I do too. Why is my view less valid than yours?

I’ve felt some sympathy with this point in the past, if my life is truly my own I should be able to end it whenever I wish for whatever reason I wish. I think as I get older I realise that people often have multiple pressure points on them so death is an option because of their circumstances rather than a deeply held desire.

Please don’t take this as an attack I am genuinely curious. Do you therefore believe that we should provide euthansia to anyone for any reason?

Yeah I don't get the not being available for suicidal people.. surely the point is that it will be a peaceful, planned death as opposed to jumping infront of a train.
If you're not suicidal, why would you want to die..

Especially since the goal of a mental illness is to kill its host. Seriously, it’s like a brain virus that instead of killing you by attacking your lungs or other organs, it attacks the brain and then forces you to harm and or try to kill yourself. When you are suicidal and I am speaking from personal experience as well as what others like me have said as we sat talking in the secure mental unit is that it’s isn’t the real you that wants to die, it is the illness speaking for you and you are no more than a puppet you are so far down that rabbit hole you can see no way out and you are in so much psychic agony you think the only way out is death. Those of us that come out the other end have nothing but gratitude for the paramedics and doctors that took the time, often YEARS, and effort to not give up on us and help us combat our mental illness to the point where we are stable and can identify when it starts to mount another attack on us so we can get help. And you know what? If euthanasia starts to be regularly offered to the mentally ill, anyone with a complex case or stubborn mental illness that takes “too long” to respond to treatment will be killed in the name of “kindness”.

@Noicant there's no need for the state to provide euthanasia to "anyone for any reason" as most people have recourse to suicide. Euthanasia is (or is intended to be) a safeguard to those who, for whatever reason, are physically unable to act independently.

Well, have you ever tried to kill yourself? More than once? Have you ever been sectioned and put on suicide watch? I’d say your opinion is equally valid if you have any experience of the above.

There are some mental illnesses that are treatment resistant. Sadly, some folk with severe mental illness have no quality of life, none whatsoever.

As a mental health nurse, I've worked with some patients who have been under the services for years, in and out of hospital. Even at their best, they barely function. I'm talking mainly about the likes of chronic schizophrenia. Of course many people with this condition live very meaningful lives, with the correct treatment regime and support. But yes, there are those who don't have a quality of life (and not just in my opinion, in their own opinions).

It's something that would have to be assessed very very carefully and on a case by case basis. I can understand the controversy. But I can also understand why some people who live daily with such a torturous illness wouldn't want to go on.

It's certainly a very thought provoking argument.

A lot of our jobs will be replaced by AI in the coming years so I would rather be euthanised than irrelevant and starving on the streets.

Yes I take your point, she chose to kill herself in a horrible way. Do you think once it was clear she would die she should have been eased on her way or that she should have been offered the choice earlier? How much earlier?

PP got to 3 stone (I’m so sorry you were so sick I can’t imagine what that must be like) and probably would have taken the option but is now recovered. How long does someone have to be ill to know that they will never recover? 5years 10 years?

Our brains aren’t even fully mature by 25. I’m sure there are many people on mumsnet who have children who could be classed as very ill in their teens but by their 30’s are ok.

In the depth of mental illness many of us here have said we would have taken the option yet we are still here. I know I would have cultivated my narrative to the best of my ability to obtain my euthansia as well. I would have said anything I needed to to get it. I wouldn’t have been lying but I would have emphasised the darkness and ignored any light.

Everyone should have the right to end their lives painlessly and at the time of their choosing. If you disagree with this then don't choose to do it.

I am hoping that the UK sees sense on this very soon.

A good friend of mine died by euthanasia due to mental illness in the Netherlands. I hate that it was allowed, I feel like he was murdered.
His life wasn't all miserable, he wasn't in constant hell like people pretend you have to be in order to be killed by the state. He'd suffered terrible CSA and couldn't get over the fact that no one had ever been punished for it, they just walked free. Knowing his abusers were out there tormented him greatly and he never truly felt safe he said.
I feel like it as just easier for the authorities to allow his death than to pull their fingers out and of their jobs properly.

@pointythings
Could you please stop using derogatory adjectives for others opinions on this? It’s really not on to say our views are “incredibly patronising”, “the sort of patronising attitude that makes me see red”, “You disrespect them utterly” “arrogant” “presumptuous” and so on.

We are respecting your opinion, but you are not respecting our opinions at all.

If you believe euthanasia should be legalised then I can't see why you'd object to this. It's the natural progression.

Fwiw, I'm against euthanasia because as you can see it's a very slippery slope.

I do recognise that, the schizophrenic I am related to had to be on heavy duty anti-psychotics permanently and had no ability to engage with the world and was incapable of self care. But they also wouldn’t have had competency to make a decision about euthanasia.

Because in certain situations the only way is down.

It's Canada . Unless you are in Canada it's a non issue .

Our brains aren’t even fully mature by 25. I’m sure there are many people on mumsnet who have children who could be classed as very ill in their teens but by their 30’s are ok.

And many people end up never being OK. Maybe you should read Tara's testimony - she was 30 when she had euthanasia in the Netherlands, after living with the impacts of anorexia for 20 years.

There isn't a simple cut off. As a pp who is a MH nurse said, it has to be assessed rigorously and on a case by case basis. But the fact is that some people will never have happiness and recovery. Why is it acceptable that they should be made to live like that forever, or be driven to commit suicide in a way that has an awful impact on people around them, causing trauma to others?

A blanket 'no, never' approach serves no-one.

I have lived with massive mental health issues for the majority of my life. I’ve been through different medications, different types of counselling, different treatments and supports. None of it has made much of a different, I find this world an entirely worthless and horrible place to live and I don’t want to continue living. Some days not even my children are enough to keep me here, between OCD and ADHD my life feels like a never ending car crash.

I have a plan to end it all if it ever gets too much though. It involves the high speed trains that pass through my local train station and I know all of the times and routes of them. Having that plan gives me strength. When it gets really bad I ask myself if this is it, if I genuinely can’t take it any more, if I genuinely cannot cope with this life any more and if it is then I can go without any guilt because I have fought long and hard against this. Every time the answer has been not yet, I’m not at that point yet, I’m not quite ready to stop fighting yet. And each time knowing I had that choice means I get better for a little while, life isn’t as awful for a bit.

I’d rather have that choice legally, I’d rather be able to go through euthanasia than involve a train driver who has no choice in it themselves. I’d rather have a choice that I could turn down, and have the peace of knowing it wouldn’t be as traumatic for my family scraping my body off the train tracks and it’s people like those on this thread that don’t understand that. I would end my life one way or another, not having euthanasia as an option isn’t going to stop it. Having it as an option means if the time ever comes my family won’t have to live with how violent the end of my life was.

It's terrifying, and I am sure that assisted suicide in uk would start off with robust safeguards, but these would reduce over time

As a parallel, legislation around termination of pregnancy has very high tests which would rarely apply. In practice, these tests are not applied rigorously and most people would regard it the woman's right to choose. (This may be a welcome development, but my point is that the law is no longer applied in the way it was intended)

Except there is a lot of activism to try and legalise it here in the U.K.

I'd want it if I developed dementia

“But the fact is that some people will never have happiness and recovery. Why is it acceptable that they should be made to live like that forever, or be driven to commit suicide in a way that has an awful impact on people around them, causing trauma to others?”

Because doctors don’t know which of the mentally ill fall into the never recover, never feel happiness category. The patients themselves don’t know, how could they?

It's not 'terrifying' FGS. Why are we completely incapable of having a grown up discussion about this?