To think it is time to quash all convictions for all convicted witches in the UK

[duvetcovereddissident]

Around 3500 executions, and many thousands more tortured and convicted after "confessing" - more than 90% of them women. Most of these in the 1600s.

These are women convicted on evidence such as loving their cats, and having hairy chins.

AIBU to say all these convictions should be quashed. It would have mattered to those who were convicted, and it matters as an illustration of the way our country has treated women, and still does, in allowing these convictions to stand.

Why? Dead is dead.

A pardon and apology was made in Scotland in 2022. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witches_of_Scotland#:~:text=Witches%20of%20Scotland%20was%20a,made%20on%208%20March%202022.

This

Oh would just be seen as empty pandering anyway (which it is)

I think it would be both harmless and pretty meaningless. A huge number of convictions as old as those for witchcraft wouldn't be considered just by us today, witchcraft is hardly unusual in this.

@duvetcovereddissident

I'm confused.
You said

"At the moment, thousands of (mostly) women stand convicted of witchcraft. What I want is for those convictions to be quashed, so they no longer stand in the legal records as convicted."

But you also said

"I am not asking about a pardon. I am asking about convictions being quashed, and yes, I think a blanket rule of everyone convicted of witchcraft having their convictions quashed would be meaningful.
*
And cheap.

No civil servants or historians needed at all."*

How are they going to be quashed if no one is going to find the records?

Maybe we should go through all the historical court records and quash all the convictions for things we no longer think are important?

Or not.

These people are dead, they really don't care.

'Being a witch' is completely different to just 'doing x illegal thing'

The government, the courts, the country at large has actual problems that need dealing with right now. Haven’t you ever heard the phrase “There’s no such thing as a free lunch”? Everything takes some sort of resource to achieve. Those resources are desperately needed elsewhere to help living people. The dead, wherever you think they may or may not be, don’t need our help. And absolutely nobody alive today will derive any benefit from this.

You can't just decide to quash convictions because we now know they were horrendously unjust. There has to be a proper (no doubt expensive) way of deciding in which situations this should be done. Could be the beginning of a very slippery slope if not done correctly.

This is my favourite ever 'what about the menz' comment

They all reflect differences in how people saw reality compared to today. Presumably, we don't think any of those kinds of things were actually bad. If we are going to take a perspective where people should have convictions removed if we no longer think the same ay about the crime, why stop with witchcraft?

For that matter, if we believed that people could make deals with the devil for evil magical powers, we'd likely make it illegal too. So it's more that we just don't think witches exist in the way people in the early modern period did.

But it wouldn't make an ounce of difference to the people convicted, nor to anyone today, since everyone now pretty much already agrees that we shouldn't be convicting people of witchcraft. It's a completely empty gesture.

I think a blanket quashing is a good idea.

How are they going to be quashed if no one is going to find the records?
You blanket quash all convictions under the relevant statute. It's not free as someone has to draft the document and the debate/vote will occupy time that could have been used for other motions, but it doesn't require going through every individual record.

Oh please, I know you ‘mean well’ but this is just ridiculous. Do you actually sit and think about things like this?

If we think about wrongful convictions for other crimes, for example homosexuality - people can apply for their historical convictions to be quashed. But there hasn’t (as far as I know) been a blanket quashing of all past convictions. And it happened much more recently. So why should there be a blanket quashing of convictions for witchcraft when they haven’t done that for other things which were once considered to be criminal acts?

Apologizing for things done by our ancestors is a waste of time, resources, and is completely unproductive. Doing better now and in the future has real meaning, not meaningless performance.

It's a gesture, but not empty.

This..would be better use of time and energy to ensure convictions today are just, relevant and proportionate. Too many ludicrous sentences, time off for good behaviour, they wouldn't be there if they had behaved ffs, a sentance passed should be served.

No. It's ridiculous. It makes no material difference to the women who were victimised by a misogynist ideology. Let the convictions stand and highlight the lineage of women hating. Society can apologise when it stops treating women like shit.

This. Set against the current background of continued global attacks on women’s rights and freedoms a pardon for witchcraft convictions is purely performative.

It’s time to stop hand wringing about history and start learning from it. No point at all wasting public money apologising with all the work that would involve. What next? Trace their descendants to pay compensation? I’m a strong believer in looking forward to improve the lot of people now and in the future.

Op, I agree. Late justice is better than no justice.

I agree with what you said that many of those women would have hoped to clear their name.

However, it would also benefit is now. All of us who would like to live in a civilised, just country.

It would be a reminder how important it is that we have rights to protect us against the arbitrary power of the state.

A very timely reminder at a time when too many people are too willing to give up those rights.

People used to be hanged for sheep rustling in the past. Those were the laws of the time, no matter how harsh we now realise those sentences were, we can't change the past

Blanket pardons/quashes have been considered for historic homosexuality convictions. They have, so far, only been done on an individual basis - e.g. Turing. The closest attempt to achieving a blanket approach was blocked by an individual MP exploiting parliamentary procedure.

It’s been done in Scotland.