Secondary school lack of teachers spiralling out of control

[noblegiraffe]

The govt released its targets for PGCE trainees for Sept 23 today and dear god we are in trouble.

The projection is that we will recruit less than half the number of secondary trainees that the sector needs. 47%.

We only recruited 59% of what was needed last year.

Jack Worth of the National Foundation for Education Research tweeted “Without an urgent policy response to make teaching more attractive, schools will face increasingly intense shortages over the next few years, which are likely to impact negatively on the quality of education.”

It looks like all subjects will miss their targets by a lot, except History, Classics (they all head off to private schools) and PE.

And today I hear of PE teachers handing in their notice because they are being expected to teach science instead.

On a thread a poster just commented that their child had to stop learning Spanish partway though the year as there was no teacher.

At my school, A-level students who have lost their teacher have had to continue by teaching themselves the course.

Parents of kids in secondary school, or approaching secondary school age: things are about to get a lot worse than they already are.

And still the government refuse to come to the negotiating table to try to fix this. What exactly is their plan? They don't have one. More and more kids will not have teachers.

https://schoolsweek.co.uk/dfe-on-course-to-recruit-less-than-half-of-required-secondary-teachers/

I also think we will need to move to bigger classes. Accept that Asian size classes are needed

Then you’d need to spend a fortune in building much bigger classrooms!

I was under the impression that teachers in many Asian countries only teach mornings only, then have the afternoons for marking and planning.

No one is stuck in school until 18... It is possible to do an apprenticeship at 16, or go to college and take a btec vocational route and now t-levels are also starting. I don't agree that children don't value education - most kids want to learn and do well but they need good teachers and a curriculum which is suitable for their needs.

Why do you consider a tradesperson less educated than you? It has always been the case that learning a trade can lead to a secure job for life, and a well trained and competent tradesperson can make a lot of money

This isn't devaluing education, at all.

An academic education doesn't and shouldn't trump a practical applied education

Yes this. Behavioural problems and parental attitude problems. Teachers are no longer respected.

Geoff Barton, head of the ASCL headteachers union has just posted this blog:

https://www.ascl.org.uk/News/Blog/April-2023/What-we-need-to-know-is-why-behaviour-is-a-signifi

"Now, look, this is a difficult topic. The last thing we want to do is give the impression that pupils are running amok. Most young people are respectful, polite and abide by the rules with an understanding that those rules exist for the good of everybody in maintaining an environment that is safe and conducive to learning. Similarly, it has always been the case that the behaviour of some pupils is challenging for a variety of reasons, and managing those issues is part and parcel of school leadership. The issue here is whether poor behaviour is more prevalent and worse, why that might be the case, what impact this may have on institutions and individuals, and how it might be addressed.

• Here's a sample of the messages received:Since the pandemic behaviour is unrecognisable. It is manifesting itself in dysregulation on a scale never seen. Calm refusal to comply with basic expectations is regular now. Extreme anxiety. Many students do not see the logic that they have come to school and therefore need to go to lessons. Not coming to school at all is more common.
• An issue which was never a problem before, is pupils walking out of their classes for little reason and refusing to engage with teachers but just content to wander the corridors. Whilst the numbers are very small it is highly disruptive taking up hours of staff time.
• Social media is adding to the challenge with incidents happening outside of school which are then brought into school, and we just don’t have the capacity to deal with them.
• Post covid we have seen a rise in the behaviour we previously did not have issues with. Basic compliance, non-attendance, defiance and a lack of respect has for a small core become the norm.
• The disruption to students' education has led to some of them losing all their 'filters' about how to behave or speak in a particular context. We have experienced vandalism of property, such as toilets, increase way beyond anything we had experienced before.
• A core group of pupils refuse to go to lessons, refuse to follow simple instructions and challenge sanctions on a daily basis; achieving compliance is an hourly struggle with these pupils who no longer respect what education has to offer and see schooling as optional.

It is clear from the messages received, and what we are hearing in general, that behaviour has become more challenging since the pandemic, and that it is adding significantly to the pressures on school leaders and staff.

Indeed, some respondents made the point that it is contributing to staff retention problems as a factor in teachers deciding to leave. Some of the messages we received also alluded to the spectre of Ofsted because of the concern that inspectors may latch on to behaviour issues as a reason to downgrade a school."

Even Geoff was unaware that things had become so bad.

It’s just as bad in primary now. Can’t recruit at all.

There are several issues here. The rot starts in primary. The workload is insane. Teachers are leaving and they are inspected under a framework designed for secondary specialists. Children are beginning secondary with poor foundations as they have disengaged teachers or supply.

Also, the behaviour coming up from primary is the worst that it has ever been. It’s a combo of SLT swallowing the likes of Dix whole. There are no consequences now. Parents don’t help either. It’s not little Johnny, it’s the teacher. Complain, moan, don’t take responsibility. “He hit you and another child you say? He told you to off? What did you do wrong?” Then giving them a family bag of sweets as a ‘reward’ for going to school.

The result? These children are wholly unprepared for secondary and often fall foul of the behaviour policy the minute they walk in the door. Parents are shockedthat they can’t moan to SLT on the gate everyday about their evil teachers. Student and parent behaviour deteriorated further.

Meanwhile, subject specialists look at the decent salary outside. A good pension contribution means nothing if the salary is small. A high percentage of a small amount is still a small amount. Often beaten in the private sector. Basic maths as Rishi would say.

Then, you have the whole country who hates teachers - telling them to leave (spectacularly missing the point that the are). Whilst saying they have easy and cushy jobs.

Pay won’t solve it, the education system is collapsing as as of now most parents are clueless. This is because schools cover it so well - until now. You can’t even get supply now.

All children have the absolute right to leave education fluent in numeracy and literacy with the skills to function as a member of society - no matter your views on education. That’s just not happening for many children and it’s increasing. Celebrating the downfall of the education system as a success is the biggest spin I’ve ever seen on here.

Pithy, brutal and 100 accurate.

• 100% accurate

I really agree about the behaviour. I've been teaching 12 years and honestly rarely had a problem with behaviour management (apart from the tiny % who nobody can reach). Since covid, the low level disruptive behaviour has suddenly exploded. To a point where I struggle to teach. I've never had that before, it's exhausting. It's spot on that there is a lot more quiet defiance and I'm not sure why the pandemic has done this.

Well to start with, I’ve done five years full time study up to postgraduate level, which cost a lot of money. While the trades person has done part time education alongside their job to a lower level. So I’ve done “more” in terms of to a higher level, and “more” in terms of amount of hours, and “more” in terms of what it cost. If you invest in doing “more” you expect to benefit from it. But you don’t! Trades people earn more than graduates and have more work experience, more employer loyalty and less debt. You’re mad if you go to university nowadays because for most it won’t pay off.

I think the pandemic has exaggerated it, but it was there before. I taught in the same school for about 14 years and behaviour was getting worse was one of the reasons I left. This was 2 years before covid. The school I went to was better initially, but followed the same path. Then covid.

I could have written everything in that Barton post. I have responsibility, so more frees. I never get any work done in school time though, as they're either taken up with managing risking children, helping staff with behaviour issues or covering absent colleagues.

I've been teaching over 20 years now and it's not so much bad behaviour but that there hardly a single class without issues. That kids in corridors think they're untouchable. That 11 year olds will outright refuse to follow a simple instruction (could you take your coat off please? Could you go to your lesson please?); that they tell you they don't like the tone in which you address them. The fucking tone!

Salaries aren’t specifically the problem. I personally don’t know any teacher who has left and walked into a better paid job, unless maybe they are low on the scales but have significant previous experience in another field. What you can do though is leave and get a similarly paid job that is easier.

The teacher workload is eye watering. On top of that you are responsible for all the world’s ills (gangs, teen pregnancies, drugs etc). Plus if little Johnny fails French because he’s a lazy little scrote then that’s your fault too for not making your grammar lessons more fun and exciting. The expectation is you work until after 60 in a job I found exhausting in my 20s.

more doesn't mean better!

and expensive certainly doesn't mean better!

and many tradepeople have also trained for many years, many do vocational training for several years, and many others start off with a two year apprenticeship, which are very competitive to get, and not only that, but do ongoing training throughout their careers.

lots of tradespeople left school with good qualifications, and chose a different path to you.

There is no reason at all why someone who went the academic route should consider themselves better educated, more intelligent or with better earning potential than someone who went the vocational route.

Some graduates are highly intelligent and capable, some are not, some tradespeople are highly intelligent and capable some are not, but it is not true to say that graduates are more likely to be intelligent and capable compared to tradespeople.

I have seen thousands of young people go in both directions, "academic" does not mean more intelligent, more educated or more competant.

Just one example for you. My son and his best friend got among the highest 11+ grades in their cohort. One went to university, one went into a trade. Both are well educated and trained in their chosen career, both are doing extremely well, and earning more than I will ever earn as a teacher. Neither could do the job of the other, as they have not had that education.

I have known academic professionals change jobs and take up a trade part way through their working life.

No, your education is not better that a trade person's education. Both are equally educated

That’s amazing. Missing the point though. Whatever path, young people still need skilled teachers in whatever field. A good plumber doesn’t necessarily have the skills to teach. You need someone with both skills. It also doesn’t address the fact we have appalling numeracy and literacy skills in the population with no teachers coming through to help.

all true!

I was addressing the assertion by a previous poster that tradespeople are uneducated, and that good pay for tradespeople was a sign that education is not respected

Trades people earn more than graduates and have more work experience, more employer loyalty and less debt. You’re mad if you go to university nowadays because for most it won’t pay off.

Tradespeople earn money because they have useful - and saleable - skills. Many graduates don't.

Oh yes - that’s a nonsense.

Teachers, nurses and doctors, have saleable and marketable skills. But are not being paid a market rate, so are leaving. Having these skills means other employers, or countries, like them v much, and will pay them.
If we want to have teachers, nurses and doctors in this country we need to pay them the marketable rate. Or we won't have any v soon. I find that both scary and sad.

It's a downward spiral. My DD 13 doesn't see the point in lessons where there is just yet another sub who just gives them worksheets. She's also one who will happily opt out of a lesson because she thinks the teacher doesn't like her or try and refuse to bother going in. Top sets in everything but we make her do extra at home. Most won't or can't.

Why is she in top set

Hopefully supply and demand will mean that teachers will be able to pick and choose and end up teaching only in schools where pupils are not violent or aggressive to them.

@Myjobisanightmare because for the majority of lessons she's fine. But moans about endless supply teachers. My point is that it's effecting the engagement of teenage DC - even the previously motivated ones. Covid definately effected their relationship with schools.
She's extremely bright & does loads extra stuff. Most don't

Unfortunately all the teachers I know who have left or are leaving (across a few schools, my DH and some good friends' schools) are literally leaving teaching. They have been worn down too much.

Which is the same for me. Once I am gone, I am gone.

I don’t know anyone who’s left teaching in the last year or two who has gone on to take a job in another school-they’ve all either retired or left teaching completely. I know that’s anecdotal, but that’s 8 people I can think of-only 2 have retired.

You’ve got to be kidding!

I got out in the pandemic. Never going back. I personally got sick of being told how safe our schools were with 1800 kids changing lessons all the time and 35 sat in a room designed for 20. Did l really want this in my late 50’s? Nope.

So l left. The A level l set up has dropped its grades since l left