Negotiating exit from work

[Lostwifehelp]

Can anyone share their experience of going through this? DH is about to go through this as a project winds down and he has nothing else in the pipeline. He has a long notice period (6 months) but I’m guessing they will try to negotiate it down so he will probably get paid for a few months? Any insights appreciated/

He’s a partner at a law firm so that’s where the expectation to bring in work comes from.

@OdeToBarney that’s super helpful. I didn’t know he would have to get advice on the settlement agreement. That means that he shouldn’t end up settling for less than the 6 months he is entitled to I hope.

If he has a six months notice period within his contract even if they dismissed him for performance, they’d need to pay this as it’s his contractual notice as he has over two years service. There’s no way they’d make him work the notice as it wouldn’t be in their interests.

The only dismissal without notice which is legally valid is a gross misconduct dismissal which they’d need to prove. A lot of firms do dismiss those with less than two years service for other reasons though as they can’t claim unfair dismissal.

I agree with this. Reading between the lines, it sounds like he just wants to get out of there, even if it means losing some income. And likely he's embarrassed to tell you that, hence all the circumlocution.

Just tell him you want him to do what's best for him, never mind the money.

Why would a high-level lawyer need advice from random people on the internet, most of whom will have no legal qualifications at all?

Agree. The actual redundancy pay is tax free but not the pay in lieu of notice or holiday pay. This is a relatively recent change to stop large settlements bring tax free.

@Coffeetree I understand that but if your contractually entitled to 6 months and the company has no use for you, then why not try to get 6 months pay whilst you sit at home trying to find another job?

I think 'project' may be misleading here.

He's a partner at the firm. Part of his contractual role as a partner is to bring new work into the business. He's not been successful at bringing in new work. Because he has not found any new work he will have no fee-earning work once the work with his current clients ends. The work with the current client has a defined end point project and will end soon.

He needs to refer to his contract and get professional advice from an employment law specialist familiar with working with legal professionals in partnerships. Your husband may be right to be concerned if he's in breach of contract. This is what he needs a specialist to advise him, not Mumsnet.

How can anybody here answer that? You need to be talking to him, not us.

Surely in his profession he can easily find a suitable employment law/partnership law specialist to give home the best advice?

Just realised he’s a ‘partner’ (owner)OP. He needs to find out if he is actually an ‘employee’ of the firm in the legal sense. As pp have said employment law advice is crucial.

@GreyGoose1980 Should have said non equity partner (ie he receives a salary and does not own the business)

@DogInATent I did think off that but the contract is pretty general ie nothing like must bring in x number of clients or y revenue.

He’s agreed that I might be right and he will seek some advice. Thank you mumsnetters! I had a feeling he was going to himself short but I didn’t feel confident about it until you confirmed that I could be right.

It is always easier for someone else to argue your case than do it yourself, you say he has MH issues as well - it would serve him well to hand the negotiations over to another solicitor not in his firm. If its not something he is used to doing in his career and he has lost confidence then he needs the support of someone he trusts.

This also means that the firm will be reluctant to try any shenanigans such as sticking him on a performance review - as a peer outside the firm will be involved, and they won't want to look nasty and vindictive to other respected solicitors. Even in solicitor's firms, solicitors do not follow protocol for HR issues unless you hold them to account, and bullying and harassment is also still prevalent.

Employment law is detailed and nuanced and a family lawyer or probate lawyer for instance wouldn't necessarily be up with latest practice etc

I think if he has handed in his notice they are unlikely to take any further steps eg gross misconduct or performance plan.

He just needs to do and see where he ends up with his notice period. He either sits it out with them for six months not doing anything (effectively gardening leave particularly if he can work from home) or they or he may try to negotiate a shorter period. If I have a six month notice period, no job to go to and no client base to lose I would be trying to have the six months and get paid.

Law firms generally don't want claims etc. if they are presented with an underperforming partner willing to leave and not cause them problems then I don't think this will be difficult.

@RB68 Yes confidence is completely shot and his mind isn’t working as it should. I think that’s definitely an issue which is why I felt the need to step in and try to steer him a bit.

6 months is plenty of time to look for a new job.

Ok, it now makes a lot of sense if he’s a non equity partner. Unfortunately they can performance manage him out if he’s not bringing any work in. He’s essentially an employee with targets and if he can’t reach those targets, things become tricky.

Maybe he could look at other firms in a non-partner role. For example, go in as a director or of counsel. Less responsibility than a partner (and therefore less pay) but still a level of seniority.

I am an employment lawyer and it really isn’t in his interests to accept a shorter notice period.

If he is made redundant due to a lack of work, he would expect six months notice, plus redundancy pay. It won’t be a lot with him only having two years service though.

If it’s a performance issue then I would expect six months notice plus an additional three to six months pay to reflect the minimum amount of time it would have taken to performance manage him if they hadn’t opted to bypass the process.

And when it comes to notice requirements in a contract - the company cannot simply claim gross misconduct and get out of paying it. It’s not like unfair dismissal which is slightly more subjective - it’s a matter of fact, ie did he ACTUALLY commit gross misconduct (a fundamental breach of contract) which absolves any notice requirement. Assuming that he hasn’t committed GM then they need to give him his notice.

The only obvious reason to accept shorter notice is if there’s a real and genuine risk of instant dismissal (because the employee is guilty of doing something akin to gross misconduct) where the alternative would be dismissal without notice.

As a lawyer he needs to learn to advocate for himself, presumably he does this on behalf of his clients so he should be capable of negotiating a decent deal for himself!

Speaking from my own experience, if you are a valued employee with a good track record then you don't get exited just because you're going through a dry spell for new business. Your bosses will support you in finding new opportunities until things get better again. Sorry OP but I do think you are not being given the full picture here and that he is being eased out due to a poor track record which puts him in a less ideal position for a payout. I would suggest you talk to him to find out what's really going on.

I would also add that even the most seemingly cutthroat firms have excellent mental health policies in place (because they have to) and so they wouldn't be easing him out because of poor mental health - he'd be getting lots of support and an action plan to help him return to full capacity. Or has he been through this with them already?

Excellent advice from @RB68.

He is clearly not a well man if this has to be pointed out to him.

OP, you need to step up as you are doing and not allow him to be taken advantage of when unwell.

Be very firm with him on this point.
YOU need to protect the family from him, if necessary.

Have you asked for GP advice?

A dear friend of mine whose husband had MH issues and was refusing to be helped, had to be told she was moving out before the penny dropped that he needed help.

He needs protecting from himself and sometimes you have to apply tough love to convey that.

I am so sorry.

@MrsPinkCock Thank you, very helpful. I think it really is about not being able to bring in work. We have sort off seen this coming for a while now. Apart from one case which has been ongoing for the last two years and about to end, he hasn’t been able to bring in anything else. He’s been particularly focused on trying to bring in more work over the last 6 months as he knew this case was going to end but has had no luck. I don’t think there is any gross misconduct type issue (but of course I can’t say that with certainty). It’s good to know that in these circumstances he should get at least 6 months.

I agree he should be great at negotiating. In fact when I have been reticent to negotiate things with my employer he has always pushed me on it. I really do think his mental health issues are having an impact here.

@billy1966 Thanks. Unfortunately, ultimatums won’t work on him. He’s in such a dark place that he’s ready to cut everyone out of his life including me, his parents, his siblings and his friends. The only thing he cares about are his children and they are too young to ask him to get help.

For his seniority, he is right to seek proper employment law advice about his exit.

If he has no clients to take with him, a good option is to flip sideways and go in house, particularly if he specialises in a certain sector. I would suggest he start searching for roles inhouse asap as that can take a while. If he joins a big organisation, there is a lot of scope for advancement and remuneration. The best way if he is a partner is to parachute in as a GC or close to GC. It will be a steep learning curve but if he enjoys management and does not like client entertaining, he will feel much more at ease and motivated. There is nothing more soul destroying that not having work to do and still have hourly targets. The best thing about inhouse is there are no time sheets!

If he prefers to stay in a law firm, he can also work inhouse as a professional support lawyer or in Risk or the latest buzz Legal Tech. There are senior non-fee-earning COLP and MLRO roles that sometimes go to ex-partners but they are quite rare.

Alternatively, if he wants to stay in practice, he can consider joining a virtual law firm like Gunnercooke or Keystone. There, he eats what he kills and keeps the majority of his billings. But he must have at least some clients of his own to make that work. There is an internal referral network within these firms but he will have to go out and make those contacts (call it internal schmoozing). There are no targets or external pressure on him or management crap, other than finding and doing the work. Some people prefer this freedom to working in a law firm and is equivalent to self-employment.

The downside about stepping down to join another law firm as a fee-earner as Counsel or as Senior Associate is that unless he takes a big pay cut, he will be very expensive and sooner or later, the conversation will come up re: making partner. If he understands the concept of "Finders, Minders and Grinders", the latter 2 don't come up that often to lawyers joining externally unless your dh has a particular niche skill that is difficult to find.

It will be very useful to know which area of law your dh practices in. There are lots of lawyer mntters who can offer advice.

@blueshoes Thank you for taking the time to share that. We have spoken about going in house, legal tech etc but he doesn’t feel he’s a good fit for any of those and he keeps saying he’s done with the law and wants to do something completely different. The difficulty is that to get something that will pay as well as he is currently paid is going to be challenging. I think he’s really lost and he needs time to figure things out, which is why getting the six months pay is important.