To think that a surrogate mother...

[BackDownSouth]

Is the biological mother of a surrogate baby that she delivers, even in cases where another egg was used? One thing I hate hearing in the surrogacy debate by pro-surrogacy folks (who like to minimise the connection between mother and child and the effect that separation at birth can have on both) is “the surrogate has no biological relation to the baby” in cases where an egg other than the surrogate’s own were used. Of course she has a biological connection to the baby. She doesn’t have a GENETIC link to the baby - no. But biological? She has about as much of a biological connection with it as she would her own genetic child. The baby is quite literally made of her. The genetic material of the egg may predetermine baby’s genetic make-up to match that of the intended mother’s egg but that is such a shallow link compared to the nurturing happening during the pregnancy. It's the surrogate mother’s body building and nurturing that child. The mother’s body will likely forever retain snippets of the child’s DNA - particularly traces of Y chromosome if she carries a boy. Everything the mother does or eats or feels will influence that child. The baby knows her smell and voice and as soon as they are born they seek her, and they will feel stress at being placed into a stranger’s arms rather than mum’s immediately after birth. It’s completely ridiculous to say there is no biological connection between surrogate and baby. What’s more of a connection, really, to a newborn baby who has no concept of themselves other than the birth mother who is all they have ever known? Is the baby bothered about a mother who makes up half of their DNA but who has been on the other side of the world since their conception and is going to lay claim to them through a financial transaction? Or is the baby instead going to crave the presence of the woman who has grown and nurtured them? The surrogate is mum and the baby is going to need her post-birth no matter how much people want to ignore that.

People like to say “DNA is nothing” in the context of the love between step-parents and their stepchildren, adoptive children etc, and that’s rightly so. A genetic link isn’t what makes a family. But in the case of surrogacies, this is all completely thrown out of the window and the idea of a surrogate mother bonding with her baby (because it is her baby…) is inconceivable because she ‘isn’t even related to them’ despite literally creating and birthing the child.

In the olden days it was acceptable for "respectable" couples to basically be able to buy a baby from the "orphanage" i.e. from a mother deemed unfit to raise her child.
Mother and Baby homes like these are now seen as abhorrent.

Commercial surrogacy is just the modern version. Its banned in most if Western Europe, the UK is an outlier.

Truly altruistic surrogacy, with no money involved, a sister for example has less ethical issues.

I've no doubt that a lot of couples involved in surrogacy make great parents. As did a lot of couples involved in the old adoption practices. Doesnt make it right.

Personally, I think there’s definitely some tightening-up that needs to happen around the legalities of surrogacy, especially as regards the rights of the child. But some of the gatekeeping around quote-unquote ‘natural’ fertility on threads like this is truly alarming.

You don’t mention egg donors, just donation. Using donated eggs is using a another woman’s body just like surrogacy except to a lesser degree. Egg donation is invasive, painful and risky. There’s a dark, exploitative side to it, especially egg sharing in return for cheaper IVF, and especially in countries where it’s less well regulated than here and impoverished young women are able to be targeted.

In a follow up to my last post on my suspicions around this glut of threads on surrogacy, I wouldn’t put it past hard right American Christian funded think tanks to be starting them.

I’ve noticed a common theme whereby the OP starts off attacking surrogacy and then PPs will bring in gay men going down that route and how that’s bad. They may pepper the post with trans stuff to make it extra sensational. This will be followed by attacks on sperm/egg donation, IVF and even adoption in some cases.

The perfect scenario is always that the baby is born to a woman and stays in a conventional family setting. The anger and passion of the posts makes it all sounds very Christian. It’s suspect.

As I understand it, there are various restrictions/procedures in place in the UK to check that someone donating e.g. a kidney to a relative are doing so altruistically and not being exploited. Surely the same could be applied to women who choose to become surrogate mothers?

That would allow women in a position to make an informed, non-exploitative choice to do that if they chose.

Yes, I’ve noticed this too.

What do you mean 'already on the way'? They're not though are they. People are this moment chosing/hoping to concieve and brig children into the world under less favourable conditions....and they will continue to

Didn't Rosanna Davison use a poor Ukrainian woman as a surrogate? That woman now lives in Ireland and is on occasion invited to Rosannas mansion. It's weird because Rosanna went on to have twin boys naturally. I personally would never exploit some poor Ukrainian woman to rent out their womb to grow my own child. It's wrong .

That's heartbreaking, poor girl.

If it is ovarian tissue that's been removed then it would be with a view to reimplanting it in the future so she can bear her own children. As far as I'm aware that's the only method of preserving fertility in pre-pubescent girls.

YADNBU.

Surrogacy is human trafficking.

Lots of European countries have completely banned it. Wish we would too.

Hi @JuneShitfield @Endlesssummer2022 I started a thread on here a few weeks ago about the proposed reforms by the Law Commission to liberalise surrogacy. I started it because I’m concerned about the impact on women and children: why is it that you can’t see we may have a point, and instead you jump to assuming we’re all hard right?

I can assure you, I am not funded by the American far right 😂 I was a member of the Labour Party for fifteen years until they forgot what a woman is and have been on the left all my life. I still think surrogacy is wrong.

Genuine question .. why do some not like egg donation? A friend went through it and shared eggs with someone who was already doing IVF in the UK. They had a surplus (and I mean a lot) of eggs and were happy to share. Genuinely happy. No finances involved.

Honestly - so what?

@VestaTilley I was on that thread (I namechanged). You had a point, about the specifics of the legalities, within the UK in particular.

But that thread rapidly became a sounding board for others to bash the basic concept of surrogacy, over and over and over again. It totally defeated your original point, which became lost in all the yelling.

I posted this upthread

You don’t mention egg donors, just donation. Using donated eggs is using a another woman’s body just like surrogacy except to a lesser degree. Egg donation is invasive, painful and risky. There’s a dark, exploitative side to it, especially egg sharing in return for cheaper IVF, and especially in countries where it’s less well regulated than here and impoverished young women are able to be targeted.

Yeah, just like for some poor men, buying a prostitute is the only way he can possibly get sex 🥺

Theres no excuse for treating a woman like something you can purchase, male or female.

It really is so often missed in this discussion that that child has taken parts of that woman’s body to grow to term. People sometimes forget that it is not just gametes contributed to the development of that new human.

And no. Exploiting any other woman’s body to have a child that has been created especially for your needs is not acceptable. It doesn’t matter which way anyone tries to position it. It is exploiting at least one other woman’s body and it is exploiting the child.

Omg I had no idea that women were being forced into pregnancy in the same way as they’re forced into prostitution.

Before I had dd, I didn’t give a great deal of thought into the ethics behind surrogacy. Once a gave birth to a child, I could see the drive and needs of the newborn baby. These should be paramount.

As for the talk of vessel and no link. This is divorcing the biological processes, which happen to form the baby aka epigenetics. The gestating / birth mother’s body has a large influence on the baby. It is her body, which enables the embryo to follow its pre determined genetic coding. Her biology, nutrition and lifestyle, even levels of stress contribute to gene expression. Women for example are told to avoid certain foods, alcohol, take certain supplements, exercise, avoid obesity in pregnancy and so forth. This is because not caring for our bodies pre and during pregnancy can lead to developmental issues for the growing foetus. Epigenetics continues to influence our bodies into adulthood and that of our descendants.

It can be very coercive, women pressured into it as a way of being able to afford IVF - imagine how your friend would’ve felt if her IVF had failed but another woman had had a baby using your friend’s eggs? Your friend’s genetic child would be out there somewhere, raised in another family.

There is a good documentary on YouTube caller Eggsploitation - mostly about American donors who are paid for their eggs. Some have real health problems afterwards, even losing their own fertility (the ovaries are artificially stimulated to produce multiple eggs in one go).

Plus, some of the babies born are now old enough to describe their experiences of ‘genealogical bewilderment’ ie not knowing their genetic origins - it can be a similar emotional experience to being adopted at birth (regardless of how fantastic the the legal guardians are, I’m certainly not denigrating people’s ongoing parenting!)

One article about egg donation there are more
.
https://www.wired.com/story/inside-lucrative-business-donating-human-eggs/

Surrogacy simply shouldn't happen. People who believe their own needs are way more important than that of a child are incredibly selfish. People saying it's their own chance doesn't make it OK. Where do you draw the line, if the surrogate was forcibly impregnated and the baby snatched from their stomach is that OK if it is your 'only chance' to be a parent? Surrogates are either exploited or pressured into being them, or have mental health issues which should be explored rather than allowing it to happen.

Presumably you used donated sperm. How is that morally ethical and prioritising the child?

Surrogacy seems to be more about what the adult wants, rather than the child. It's the wrong way round. And really quite exploitative towards vulnerable women.

Oh, not this again. MN is so vehemently anti surrogacy and the emotive language used about the poor baby being 'ripped' from the 'only human it has ever known' is OTT and nauseating. You can bet that if half of the mothers on here found themselves faced with infertility they would try anything, so step down from your ivory towers

'Would try anything' exactly what I mean. No, most wouldn't.