To think that a surrogate mother...

[BackDownSouth]

Is the biological mother of a surrogate baby that she delivers, even in cases where another egg was used? One thing I hate hearing in the surrogacy debate by pro-surrogacy folks (who like to minimise the connection between mother and child and the effect that separation at birth can have on both) is “the surrogate has no biological relation to the baby” in cases where an egg other than the surrogate’s own were used. Of course she has a biological connection to the baby. She doesn’t have a GENETIC link to the baby - no. But biological? She has about as much of a biological connection with it as she would her own genetic child. The baby is quite literally made of her. The genetic material of the egg may predetermine baby’s genetic make-up to match that of the intended mother’s egg but that is such a shallow link compared to the nurturing happening during the pregnancy. It's the surrogate mother’s body building and nurturing that child. The mother’s body will likely forever retain snippets of the child’s DNA - particularly traces of Y chromosome if she carries a boy. Everything the mother does or eats or feels will influence that child. The baby knows her smell and voice and as soon as they are born they seek her, and they will feel stress at being placed into a stranger’s arms rather than mum’s immediately after birth. It’s completely ridiculous to say there is no biological connection between surrogate and baby. What’s more of a connection, really, to a newborn baby who has no concept of themselves other than the birth mother who is all they have ever known? Is the baby bothered about a mother who makes up half of their DNA but who has been on the other side of the world since their conception and is going to lay claim to them through a financial transaction? Or is the baby instead going to crave the presence of the woman who has grown and nurtured them? The surrogate is mum and the baby is going to need her post-birth no matter how much people want to ignore that.

People like to say “DNA is nothing” in the context of the love between step-parents and their stepchildren, adoptive children etc, and that’s rightly so. A genetic link isn’t what makes a family. But in the case of surrogacies, this is all completely thrown out of the window and the idea of a surrogate mother bonding with her baby (because it is her baby…) is inconceivable because she ‘isn’t even related to them’ despite literally creating and birthing the child.

DD has three half sisters, the one she was brought up with who matters very much (and is her sister, no half measures), the other two she has never met, and aren't a gap in her life.

Mmmm how old is she ? You just can't know that not knowing about siblings isn't going to be a gap in her life.

I have a friend in her 50s who was adopted. She has always felt a sense of loss of her biological family. She never discussed it with her adoptive parents because she loved them.

Now they are both dead she is experiencing grief on levels that I can't really understand as I haven't been in her position, she is grieving her adoptive parents and the biological family she never knew.

She is now having counselling and is considering finding her bio family .

I have to ruefully agree, in my own case anyway. The more I read about surrogacy, the more I disagree with it in principle. However if I wasn’t able to have a child myself and then opportunity to have a baby using a surrogate arose, it’s entirely possible I’d choose that option. For entirely selfish reasons.
I’ve had friends do it using a UK surrogate for two children each. (I draw the line at destitute women in places like Ukraine and India (I think)).
Point being, it’s not completely black and white for some people.

The 'you'd do the same if you were faced with infertility' argument simply doesn't wash with me and it's actually offensive and patronising towards other infertile women. I had stage 4 endo and struggled to conceive (eventually had DD naturally but did go through pre-eclampsia) and had a dozen early losses, but I never considered surrogacy. 1, because I don't agree with it, and 2, because I wanted to experience pregnancy and birth. For me, I know that even if I had a surrogate baby biologically related to me, it would absolutely kill me knowing I didn't carry that newborn and that the newborn wanted its birth mum, not me. I was not cut out for that. It's grim as fuck to assume every infertile woman is just wants "baby baby baby" no matter what. When I was going through fertility struggles the stigma towards infertile women was one of the most painful parts, and it was especially painful to be excluded from my sister's baby celebrations because of my infertility - I didn't get any say in that, they just assumed it wouldn't work out well for me to be there. I felt like my family expected me to become so desperate for a baby that I'd try and claim my sister's, and I eventually confronted them about how I was getting this impression and got tearful apologies and admissions from them. It's just the same to assume that every infertile woman is immoral enough to consider commercial surrogacy. Nope. My sympathies lay with the women who desperately wanted to be pregnant and to give birth to their own baby but have had to give up and grieve because life simply isn't fair.

There are plenty of people who can't concieve and who are very against surrogacy. We don't all change strongly held opinions depending on our own circumstances.

To be devil's advocate here, everything you said for justifying the birth mother being the 'biological' mother could be said for any parasitic infection. If you get a parasite your body 'nurtures' it, it gets nutrition from you, grows and goes through its life cycle inside you, then can exit and leave behind traces of itself.

Does that mean everyone who has had an infection should feel like its biological parent? Does that mean surrogacy is like having a parasite? Maybe this thread is a whole load of goady nonsense.

She's 16. In touch with the one half-sister (not half emotionally, just her sister, the fact that they have different fathers is irrelevant). Through her sister occasionally has contact with a cousin, sometimes other (more extended) biological family.

I am 50. Have never felt a gap for my half-sister. I have a brother and half brother. Not close to either, though closer to my full brother as we were brought up together. When mutual father died half-brother was involved in the funeral. Let him know half-sister was welcome if she wanted to come. I didn't feel any sense of loss that she didn't.

I have a very good friend of many years that does feel like a sister. No biological relation.

DD has wonderful godparents, one a previous carer, others the parents of her BFF since she came to live with me over a decade ago. Their relationships are absolutely core to her, and her long-term sense of herself.

Sorry, did I miss the answer to how the process would identify if an altruistic surrogate was being emotionally coerced?

Considering how long it has taken me to process and understand the emotional trauma of my childhood, I wonder how any process is going to be robust and productive enough to uncover the coercive issues at play.

Or do you think that a couple of meetings and some ineffective counseling will tick the boxes? Leaving the coercive issues completely untouched.

Again, this is not a kidney donation. This is a child being grown in a woman ’s body, using parts of that woman’s body to do so. This so much more complicated on different layers - physical and emotional, than an organ donation.

Just because you, personally, cannot see the issues doesn’t mean that the issues are not there and are not documented.

I don’t mean just saviour siblings, but genetic matches for the adults for various medical requirements.

Also I dislike the “Celebrity welcomes baby Eureka!” No. Celebrity aged 55 bought baby Eureka.

Well, there is no absolute way of making sure a kidney donor is not being emotionally coerced.

Or, of course, the 'saviour siblings'

A human baby is a bit fucking different to a pinworm though, isn't it? Jesus fucking wept

But - DD is my daughter. There's no qualification of 'sort of like' my daughter. She just is my daughter. With a mild interest in biological relations, but I have never stood in the way of contact with them and the biological relatives she does care about are those who have been a constant presence in her life.

So she does still have contact with biological family. She does have an interest in that. Why? Is it the glamour of a biological link? Or something deeper than that?

I have a half-sister I have never met (I'm not adopted) and don't feel any gap in my life.

How about your half sister. Is she with her biological mother? And how would you know if she felt a gap in her life if you've never met her?

DD has three half sisters, the one she was brought up with who matters very much (and is her sister, no half measures), the other two she has never met, and aren't a gap in her life

She may be more interested in them as an adult. But if you tell her you think a biological link is just glamorisation, she may decide not to tell you that. Also, how would you know if your dd is not a gap in their lives?

Or maybe your post is goady nonsense.

I had an abortion at 16 I had 2 options either abortion or packing my bags and leaving with no money or job.

Not all surrogate women are being exploited and for those who do it for other reasons what laws are there to protect them in countries where there is poverty? Do these women know their legal rights because a lot of people don't and that's what makes it easier to exploit people for their own gains?

"Surrogacy is legal in the UK, but if you make a surrogacy agreement it cannot be enforced by the law." Surrogacy: legal rights of parents and surrogates: Overview - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)

I have heard from a Mumsnetter on a previous thread that lesbians are sometimes targeted for this coercion.

Firstly, they are more likely to be attending clinic for social reasons (same sex partners!) rather than reasons relating to physical infertility (so are likely to have healthy eggs) and secondly, they are likely to be younger than women who are there after trying to get pregnant via heterosexual sex for many years first. Younger women are less likely to be financially comfortable than older women so more susceptible to coercive egg donation for monetary reasons.

Of course, lesbians often don’t need IVF at all, at least not without first trying the much less invasive IUI - but that wouldn’t give the clinic an opportunity for extra ‘donor’ egg collection, so bring on the concept of ‘reciprocal IVF’ where one woman has eggs harvested, her egg is fertilised via IVF and the resultant embryo is implanted into her female partner.

Which is much more expensive than IUI and much more invasive, involves medical procedures and expensive drugs for two women rather than one and if embryo transfer is successful, makes for a higher risk pregnancy for the mother than if she’d conceived with her own egg!
And as it’s likely that both women are perfectly healthy and have no medical infertility (because they were only in clinic due to social reasons, ie, needing donor sperm) all that extra financial cost and physical risk is entirely avoidable.

The more you look into this stuff, the more exploitation you find, especially as women who really want babies are likely to be incredibly vulnerable to ‘upselling’ and saying yes to whatever the clinic suggests, because most of us don’t have unlimited funds and want to maximise chances of success.

She has an interest in members of her biological family that have been consistently part of her life. She has a mild interest if she sees a random family member to see if e.g. they have a similar shaped chin. She doesn't feel a gap in her life if she doesn't see them.

She was five when she came to live with me, so it made sense to maintain the positive relationships. There are biological family members she has actively chosen not to see again (despite SW pressure) because they were abusive.

My half-sister grew up with her biological mother. According to my half-brother, when he re-established a connection with our mutual father, their mother had pressured them to break contact after a hostile divorce. Half brother chose to get in contact when he left home, half sister didn't. Half brother occasionally mentioned our mutual father to her, but she never chose to get in touch. She must be in her late 60s/early 70s now.

I have never told DD that an interest in her birth family is a glamorisation. I have encouraged her to keep in contact with those she wants to, and have facilitated that in her younger years. Now she is old enough to be in touch with whoever she wants.

DD may be a gap in their lives. That isn't her responsibility, and she has no obligation to them.

This.

Yes, totally this

I completely disagrees with mumsnet's anti - surrogacy stand.

I was lucky to have two children naturally and I am currently pregnant with my third - conceived relatively quickly.

However, I think surrogacy is brilliant for people who can't carry a child.

I disagree that it is super harmful for the child as always portrayed on mumsnet.

Surrogacy isn't about the needs or best interests of the baby, it's about the adults. It's a selfish process driven purely by selfish needs.

If you want to go down that road, this could be said about any pregnancy. Couples choosing to conceive ultimately are doing it for themselves!

DD may be a gap in their lives. That isn't her responsibility, and she has no obligation to them.

Especially as they either chose to look away while she was being abused/neglected, or weren't close enough to see what was happening.

I agree @BackDownSouth surrogacy can be summarised as a mother handing her baby over for money to a complete stranger. I feel so sorry for those poor babies taken away from everything they’ve ever known.

My point stands you can't possibly KNOW how she will feel at any point in the future.

Even is she doesn't feel the need it doesn't negate the fact that many many people do. Their experience is valid and is pretty well documented.

The fact that adopted children often have attachment disorders is also no coincidence.

I'm assuming you were able to able to have your own children op?

Exactly! Or adoption.

That's how any adult becomes a parent.

Of course it needs strict regulation to prevent exploitation, as far as possible.

As does living kidney donation. There are serious risks, and there needs to be a process to ensure that the adults making that choice understand those risks and are making a choice as consenting adults.

Very likely that will make surrogacy quite rare. That's fine.