Closing all private schools would benefit state schools

[Nimbostratus100]

I've been thinking about that the argument of state schools not being able to accommodate another 7 % of pupils. It really doesn't add up

For one thing, state schools are frequently in a situation of having to accommodate 7% more pupils and they just stretch and cope. It wouldn't be any different.

And each pupil brings in more government funding.

And if all the private schools closed, we would have a fresh pool of 14% more teachers! More funding for teachers in state schools, and a massive increase in numbers of teacher applying!

Given that many vacancies are currently attracting zero applicants, this could be a total game changer!

Of course some teachers in private schools would not apply to state schools, an would just leave teaching instead, and some would not be qualified to teach in state schools.

But then, we wouldn't be taking in 7% more pupils, either, given how many private school pupils are overseas, or have parents overseas, and would just move to board in another country.

So say 5% more pupils, and maybe 12% more teachers! fantastic! even more so when you consider the resources potentially freed up - many of our best resources were donated 10 or 20 years ago by private schools, they might have untold wealth in the form of sports equipment, science equipment, technology, test books, musical instruments! working photocopiers!!! school furniture!

And potentially, even school premises

Oh so a school educating severely disabled children are a joke having charitable status?

Are you sure it would be cost effective? What evidence do you have for that?

There is way more to a child’s success than the school. In fact school is a tiny proportion. People obsessing about private. Vs state as the golden nugget are ignoring the glaring realities. Genetics, upbringing and homelife are far far more important. Getting rid of private remission will not change these fundamental facts however much the blame of not achieving wants to continually be blamed on ‘oh it was my school.’

@DragonMama3 'Can you cite any examples of private schools gifting to state?'

DS's small independent provided the cover for the children of emergency workers during lockdown because the local state school refused.

They open the pool to three of the local primaries for swimming lessons.

They share DoE resource as well.

But straight gifting - no - everything is used until it falls apart or it is sold to cover replacement costs. There's no spare money.

Noble idea but not sure it’s practical without a LOT more investment in state schools

rich people will always find a way to buy privilege for their children, closing private schools won’t stop that.

I’m not arguing in favour of getting rid of private schools @lolo99 the state currently doesn’t provide what many children need. I use the private sector. While the state currently fails to provide a decent education for all, removing access to private education will only make matters worse. Restricting private education wouldn’t be necessary if the state did all it should.

I think the state is short-sighted in how it underspends on education, leaving people who are then ill-equipped to make a positive contribution to society. It’s self evident that front loading 14 years of spending on education would be cheaper than the following 60 years of potential spending on benefits, social care and in the worst cases, prison.

and I agree future success dictated by way more than school @lolo99 it is just that school is one way of levelling the playing field. Or it can be. I suppose whether you think that’s important or necessary is a matter of perspective. I think it is, even without arguing that it would actually be cheaper in the long run.

Our private school contributes significantly to the community, It offers alot of bursaries. It has a SEN cohort that makes up 27% of the total cohort. (Most of these kids- like my DC with additional needs) were totally failed by the state provision around here. The school has a teeny boarding section and has provided free places to some Ukrainian refugee children. The state schools around also use the facilities from games pitches to the theatre. This year (and I don't know if it has happened before) the school placed specialist music teachers FULL TIME in the next door primary school and paid for them out of our regular school funds. That's just what I can think of off the top of my head.

These are all great things. It would be better if all state schools had all the resources they need- but at present they don't. And yes, like others I have seen plenty of well off parents buying into better catchment areas (or even renting in good catchment areas while living in their actual house elsewhere) this driving up house prices. It's beyond me to understand why people somehow think playing fast and loose with catchments is morally superior than just paying for education.

I used to work at an independent school. While I was there, I set up a stockbroking competition. This has run for 4 or 5 years now and is opened up to 1-3 state schools each time (for free). That was just one example. Similar events were offered in other subjects. The school was small (only about 500 students) but central with good meeting spaces.

I'm now at a state school. We are in a partnership of private and state schools. We receive many activities free for our students, from careers talks to workshops to conferences to CPD (we host them too). Subjects like classical music, classics and MFL are really dependent on private input these days.

Meeting space, support staff (and edible food!) is something independent schools have in much more abundance. They have nice lecture halls, concert halls and theatres, playing fields and working IT (so do some state schools of course, but it's very area dependent).

If you've not already made up your mind that independent schools are parasites on society, you can read about partnerships here:

www.isc.co.uk/sector-info/state-and-independent-school-partnerships/

Many of the schools doing this work significantly predate government funded education, sometimes by centuries.

It would be mad to maintain your own athletics track or lovely Chapel if you can use another school's for free.

Of course independent school students and teachers benefit from working with state school students and teachers too. It's not a one way thing.

It's far from a straightforward matter!

Oh yes- and like @MintJulia our school also absorbed children of key workers where their regular schools were unable to during lockdown. Plus they have a strong community outreach programme where every senior school student has to volunteer in the community an afternoon a week either as a group or as an individual for some placements..... partly the space to do that is there because the school day runs from 08.15 to 5 pm so there is more space in the timetable.

But where does that money come from? In your scenario, the private school parents weren't using the place at state school they were previously paying for with their tax, but the government was certainly spending it in the education budget, on those in the system. So if you force those parents to use state, where is the money actually coming from? They are still paying the same amount of tax. Either everyone in the state system gets a little bit less money or something else is squeezed, like the NHS. Or are we going to force people to stop using private healthcare and dentists as well? If so, who is paying for that? The government will pay, you say, because 'that's how it works' but actually people paying privately eases the pressure on state funded provision, since paying tax is law, but attending state school is optional.

You'd need to outlaw all alternative education provision currently funded voluntarily, and the only way to find that would be to increase tax. Also universities and other such providers including early years settings would need to be state funded, which would also increase tax, or quality would reduce.

The state system works for middle and clever kids who don’t go private. It doesn’t work for SEN nor those children with very difficult upbringings where there is very little parental suppprt in a positive way. Would this change if more funding? I would say no- the issues for most of this lies with social funding for homes/ parents who are unable to parent well for whatever reason. Usually due to incapacity of some sort whether mental awareness or mental illness.

It would have impact beyond the education sector. Just thinking of medicine alone, I know a lot of consultants who work in difficult to recruit areas of the UK who send their children to private schools, as the state schools in the area are poor. If they closed they would undoubtedly move hospitals to be in areas with better state schools.

I can imagine this will translate into other sectors, where it will become highly problematic to recruit high level positions if the surrounding schools are poor.

@Nimbostratus100 since there would be no more money in the government pot than there is now, but significantly more students to accommodate and, as you repeatedly point out, excellent experienced teachers to pay fairly, I just don't understand your reasoning at all.

You are spot on there @squinker45, on this and with many other social issues.

A segment of people just think 'the government will provide the money' because 'that's how it works' with little or no regard as to where this money will come from. Especially in the run up to an election, it is a cheap way for politicians to win votes by telling people what they want to hear who then rush out to vote with no consideration as to the impact of delivering on these promises.

It's a bit like people buying massive TVs on credit, without looking at the APR of 3000% in the small print.

@Cloudysky81 , the point you make is amply demonstrated in Malmesbury where James Dyson has offered to give a £6m science facility to the biggest of the towns' primary schools, which is regarded by Ofsted as Outstanding.

The donation has been declined by the local education authority because they don't want to see smaller village schools disadvantaged. However, the engineers and researchers who are moving to Malmesbury to work for Dyson actively want outstanding science provision for their DC and it would also enhance the local secondaries and serve Dyson's interests by building technical skills across the work force.

Yes @Mammyofonlyone and the same argument will play out, on a smaller scale, when Labour adds VAT to private education. A good proportion of private school parents will be priced out, bursaries will dry up, there will be more children in state school and no more money to fund it since the VAT on the remaining school fees won't cover the cost of the extra places required for those many families finally forced to exercise their right to a free state education.

I honestly don't get why people don't understand this. Private schools existing (and being just about barely affordable for those that wish to pay) means MORE MONEY PER PUPIL in the state sector.

Inequality would exist with or without private education, so how would this help with addressing privilege? It wouldn't

One of my most vociferously anti-private-school friends lives in a huge house with no mortgage, paid for by her rich parents. She says private schools shouldn't be allowed to have charitable status since they don't provide, for example, overseas aid or nice homes for rejected pets. I've tried to explain to her that charitable status means they don't make profits for shareholders and they carry out charitable work in the community. These things are enshrined in the law, and the charitable status would be removed if it didn't happen.

People seem to think it's wrong, but I can't see why. Is it that people are jealous? Of what exactly?

My kids are at state school I want them to continue to benefit from the rich people's taxes while not having to share already crowded facilities with them. I don't begrudge people who can afford it buying massive houses and cars, and not having mortgages which means they don't have to work.

I dread VAT being added to school fees and my local being flooded with extra kids, many of whom will have additional needs that will require resources the school may not be able to provide.

But then again, I was floored by the idiocy of the non-logic of those who voted for Brexit so why should this surprise me

We’ll have to agree to disagree on that one @lolo99

which part?

Totally agree. And it will all just be hot air. Election guff for gullible voters. Any money earned by charging vat on private schools will create more in the state sector and NO they will not be putting it in education. The govt already think they pay enough and that is because us teachers work half our hours for free. They get double the work that they pay for! That is how the state sector still exists.

yes absolutely

@lolo99

That more funding can’t improve outcomes for children with SEND or from families who can’t parent well.

It isn't the holy grail. There is no more money. Unless of course everyone pays more and more tax. Most state schools are at least half a million in debt and been told to cut staff. Some schools don't have enough teachers let alone support staff and are teaching maths classes to 120 kids at a time in a hall. What money????

My DH is a teacher in a private school and would leave the profession if he had to go back to the state system. Many of his colleagues say the same!

Lots of my colleagues want out of the state system. It's bad, badly funded and on its knees. The govt say they plough millions into it. Well none of us have seen that, we are being told to cut spending. SEN in children is becoming more prevalent, nobody is actually asking why and state schools cannot cope with that ever growing problem either. It's a total mess.