Closing all private schools would benefit state schools

[Nimbostratus100]

I've been thinking about that the argument of state schools not being able to accommodate another 7 % of pupils. It really doesn't add up

For one thing, state schools are frequently in a situation of having to accommodate 7% more pupils and they just stretch and cope. It wouldn't be any different.

And each pupil brings in more government funding.

And if all the private schools closed, we would have a fresh pool of 14% more teachers! More funding for teachers in state schools, and a massive increase in numbers of teacher applying!

Given that many vacancies are currently attracting zero applicants, this could be a total game changer!

Of course some teachers in private schools would not apply to state schools, an would just leave teaching instead, and some would not be qualified to teach in state schools.

But then, we wouldn't be taking in 7% more pupils, either, given how many private school pupils are overseas, or have parents overseas, and would just move to board in another country.

So say 5% more pupils, and maybe 12% more teachers! fantastic! even more so when you consider the resources potentially freed up - many of our best resources were donated 10 or 20 years ago by private schools, they might have untold wealth in the form of sports equipment, science equipment, technology, test books, musical instruments! working photocopiers!!! school furniture!

And potentially, even school premises

Fwiw I chose a particular private school for Dd because there wasn’t the choice of a school who’s emphasis wasn’t on academics in the state sector

EmmaGrundyForPM
Looking at how Finnish schools operate, later start times, less testing, less homework, shorter days and not starting school till 7 years old and the inference that you can get your child tested for Dyslexia, ND etc without the complete battle you have with state education in this country I think definitely makes for a better learning environment.

I do think we need to rip up the way we educate children in the U.K.

By 8 years old my Dd was struggling and by 7years old my Ds had been written off.

At 7 years old a Finnish child would have only just entered a class room.

I don't know about the North Korean elite as a whole, but the current leader studied at a private and a state school in Switzerland. There's an interesting article about it on Politico.eu. So he did himself experience the type of education on offer in a rich developed country.

I did some more reading about Finland too. As I suspected, having met a few Finns, it's a much more socially and culturally homogeneous (any tiny) economy than ours.

The school hours are so short there. What do the kids do the rest of the time? Could we deal with our number of kids roaming about pre 9.30, after 2.30, and what would we do with the 0 to 6 year olds?

A genuinely equal quality education would be a big threat to some vested interests in our anxious, classridden, overcrowded country.

I guess I know the answer.

The Finns would be doing wholesome stuff in a forest.

Our lot would be either on a screen or up to no good or possibly both.

Sort out the state schools so that they are as good as the private schools and people won't need to send their kids private. The whole thing of "there's too much inequality, we should knock everyone down to the lowest common denominator so everything will be equally shit" is a stupid idea.

For those that think Finland has the “best” education system, it’s not quite as straightforward as that.

Finland has one of the highest, if not the highest, rates of mental illness in the EU.
https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/7d8fd88e-en/index.html?itemId=/content/paper/7d8fd88e-en

The statistics used to rank countries with the “best” education vary widely. Some studies look more at educational attainment where countries in the Far East perform very strongly, and certainly outperform European countries.

Other studies put more emphasis on small gaps between higher and lower attainers which Finland has. Finland’s school’s don’t stream by ability. Everyone is taught together. I’m not sure that this system stretches the most academic pupils as much as other systems, so there might be an argument that you don’t get as many children excelling. Aiming for everyone to be average isn’t necessarily “best”. We need people who excel in their respective fields. It’s how the human race has developed.

I don’t think there is a perfect system. The UK system isn’t perfect and nor would it be if private schools were abolished.

Phineyj

But as I said there are no private schools in North Korea but if you are rich enough and have the ability then you send your children elsewhere for schooling.
Then when they return they are in a better position than others who stayed in the state system.
Which sort of proves the point that levelling the playing fields by removing private education doesn’t work.

North Korea is an excellent example of what would happen. The elite don't suffer from their policies. Kim Jong Un isn't exactly starving like his people are, so the same applies in education - the children of the elite go to Swiss finishing schools.

DdraigGoch

the North Korea “levelling up” comment was sarcastic

Although for the majority of the population of North Korea Everyone has the same as everyone else
Absolutely nothing.

Not according to this article, which is an interesting read on the topic of schooling and education

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/aug/24/the-only-way-to-end-the-class-divide-the-case-for-abolishing-private-schools

@Kennykenkencat I think it's a matter of semantics around the use of the word "private". In Finland, 2% of schools are not government run, and so are described as private (as opposed to state) but they are not allowed to charge fees. It's illegal to charge for education in Finland.

The article is wrong. Private schools do exist in Finland. What is banned is basic education for profit.

https://www.aacrao.org/edge/emergent-news/private-education-is-not-prohibited-in-finland

The main point though, is that the UK is not Finland. Something working in one country, does not necessarily mean that another can adopt it with the same success. It’s never as simple as ‘just be like them’, or ‘tbh ye can just be like us’.

To make such a change require political will, widespread public support, funding, and a legal way to implement the changes. The government can’t ‘just’ ban private schools, any more than they can ‘just’ strip them of charitable status.

EmmaGrundyForPM*

Someone needs to tell the Steiner schools and the international schools and all the other private schools that they don’t exist.

Why have reality get in the way of a good story

I promise you that if independent schools have to close, a very big % of teachers will rather change jobs instead of teaching in the state sector.

I'm guessing here, but one obvious reason why mental health might be a problem in Finland is the long dark winters with very little daylight. Another excellent reason for getting children out of school, away from screens, and into the fresh air to enjoy what little sunlight there is.

The same in Yugoslavia. Supposedly socialist, yet the urban middle classes sent their children to gymnasia, and the working classes sent theirs to vocational schools.

I agree. There's another thread running at the moment started by a modern languages teacher who is worried sick at the contraction of modern languages degree teaching in the UK. One reason for this is that there is so little MFL teaching in the state sector and universities are pushed to take as many students as possible from state schools. Yet another example of how poorly designed targets lead to unintended consequences. My son went to an independent school where MFL teaching was a great strength and most sixth formers (all male) took at least one MFL subject to AS if not A level. (A while ago now.) This is a good thing. We need more linguists, not fewer.

You could say the same about music teaching (another strength at that school), which is withering on the vine in the state education sector because it's not valued and won't help with Ofsted and league tables.

Did you not read my post about the use of the word private? It's illegal to charge for mainstream education in Finland, even if the school is "private" (ie not run by the government).

The point is, if the political will is there, it can be done.

Apart from what you say not making an iota of sense.
How on earth would a not government run school (I.e private school or independent school) run with no fees being charged and no income from the government as they aren’t a state school

It is not illegal to charge fees for education

It is illegal to make a profit from education

How would specialist schools like for the deaf or royal ballet or cheethams music school fit in.
Even if they were somehow state acquired they’d still need entry criteria otherwise they’d be pointless.

I know, I was agreeing with you.

the government pays schools per pupil, that is how schools are funded, so more pupils is more pay

More pupils = greater expenses and needing more of everything. The money to pay the extra expense has to come from somewhere: either by increasing taxes or reducing the amount of money for other government-funded services.

Sometimes, I really do despair of MNers' inability to think.

The real answer is that no one knows.

The disadvantages of closing them are legality, encouraging rich to game system in other ways (catchment areas etc) and the need to raise more taxes to fund the extra places.

The advantages, on the other hand, is a far greater capacity for state schools to fundraise from parents, wealthy and involved parents encouraging state schools to do better and releasing more strong teachers to teach and lead state schools.

And, of course, closing the, would be ‘fairer’.

Thank you for the podcast recommendation! Only halfway through episode one but omg the drama!

As has been pointed out by many current and former teachers on this thread, there is no way of forcing teachers currently working in UK private schools to go and work instead in UK state schools. Many would choose instead to retire or to leave teaching or to become private tutors or to move abroad. A great many used to work in the state sector and left to work in schools with better behaviour and discipline so they could actually get on and teach.