Closing all private schools would benefit state schools

[Nimbostratus100]

I've been thinking about that the argument of state schools not being able to accommodate another 7 % of pupils. It really doesn't add up

For one thing, state schools are frequently in a situation of having to accommodate 7% more pupils and they just stretch and cope. It wouldn't be any different.

And each pupil brings in more government funding.

And if all the private schools closed, we would have a fresh pool of 14% more teachers! More funding for teachers in state schools, and a massive increase in numbers of teacher applying!

Given that many vacancies are currently attracting zero applicants, this could be a total game changer!

Of course some teachers in private schools would not apply to state schools, an would just leave teaching instead, and some would not be qualified to teach in state schools.

But then, we wouldn't be taking in 7% more pupils, either, given how many private school pupils are overseas, or have parents overseas, and would just move to board in another country.

So say 5% more pupils, and maybe 12% more teachers! fantastic! even more so when you consider the resources potentially freed up - many of our best resources were donated 10 or 20 years ago by private schools, they might have untold wealth in the form of sports equipment, science equipment, technology, test books, musical instruments! working photocopiers!!! school furniture!

And potentially, even school premises

This!
It isn't a Utopia it is a society that prioritises education and interestingly, their education overhaul was part of an economic recovery package....
Sometimes though when you are accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression. I entirely understand why people send their children to private schools if they can afford it, but that doesn't mean a more fair education system isn't possible to achieve.

20-25% privately educated in Edinburgh. Yeah good luck squeezing them into state schools.

Do you really those private school parents are just going to roll over? You underestimate the sharp elbows and the resulting legal challenges.

If you ban private schools, what else?
Do you ban faith schools, SEN provision, home schooling?

Do you ban private healthcare? Cars costing more than 10k? Cashmere jumpers?

I wonder just how many of the people who want private schools banned would send their kids to one if they won the lottery! Politics of envy.

A better and fairer education system should absolutely be possible - but it doesn't start by just forceably closing non-state schools and flooding the existing system with children.

If they want to reduce private school use then they need to make state school better across the board and that needs massive investment. That needs to happen before any move on private schools is considered, not after. There are some private school parents who like the fact their kid goes private - but in my experience they aren't the majority, most who I know would prefer that their kid went to the local state school but for a variety of reasons it doesn't work. This includes quite a large number with ASN.

I thought the Finnish model had been less successful recently

This is where I was mentioning upthread - it would be carnage. And most of the kids live close to the schools, they're largely not commuting in from far away (some are, but a huge porportion are close by IME). There's no way they would be able to accomodate them within the existing state schools.

Being blunt, a lot of top tier private school parents don't want their kids to mix with state school kids, so they'd just find a way around it. Personally I'd be delighted to live near an excellent state school, but as my local comprehensive is like a Borstal I've gone privately and very happy.

I would love reforms along the Finnish model.

Finland also has no super-wealthy due to a fiercely redistributive taxing model, and incidentally they have noi gendered pronouns - just a single one-size-fits-all set of pronouns.

I would be totally delighted with a revolutionary reform of the UK along the same lines which abolished all capacity to be super wealthy and had excellent schools for all.

Half-measures which outlaw accessing a suitable education for those who are failed by the state system, whilst still allowing the superwealthy to exist and find loopholes, aren't a step towards that.

Move there?

If they shut private schools, we absolutely wouldn't move to the state system.

We'd home school. We'd likely employ an ex private school teacher, and with some local friends who also attended the same school as us might do joint lessons for music, art, sport.

Of course, not a private school as they'd be banned, but private schooling offering much the same educational benefits as the private school that they could not get at state.

And when the children were old enough they'd go abroad to get a decent education, and we'd perhaps move too.

40-50% of kids in our village are privately educated. It's laughable to say that our local state school would have a place for them all, even if we did send them, which we wouldn't

If we had the educational resources of Finland (small class sizes, larger premises, shorter formal learning day, better resources, more time outdoors, better paid teachers, reduced focus on test results) then I think the majority of parents would be happy to have their child attend state school.

Apparently so:

https://bigthink.com/the-present/finland-education-system-criticisms/

https://yle.fi/a/3-11160051

Apparently they now have the widest gender gap in trading, and family background has become significant in how well a child does.

Amen to this. I remember a family who moved over the summer between year 5 and year 6 (final year of primary school) from their rented flat near the primary to a rented house right next door to a very good, hugely oversubscribed comprehensive school several miles away - much better than any school their son had any realistic chance of getting into in our area. The new house was on a direct bus route back to the primary school. That autumn they applied for a place at the secondary school and their son commuted back to the primary school by bus. Once they had secured a place at the comp in the spring, they bought a house back in our area, which was much cheaper, so he commuted the other way once he started secondary. They gamed the system very effectively and I admired their commitment.

Excellent post. It appals me that social mobility has got worse over my lifetime. It was getting so much better after the end of WW2 and the introduction of the Welfare State, universal provision of free healthcare and secondary education, etc etc.

Appalling. I would like to see far more support given to teachers and other public servants who have to deal with these vicious, lawless thugs. They should be prosecuted. This wouldn't be acceptable out on the street, so why is it OK inside schools or A&E?

Of course, the root cause is in the family and that is something the current government is doing nothing about beyond occasional vague soundbites about how unacceptable the situation is.

I’m another private school teacher who would look for any alternative than return to the state sector. I’ve done my time being sworn at and physically threatened and made to feel it was my fault by SLT whilst working in poorly resourced and micro managed conditions, no thanks. Conditions in State are getting worse and I have no desire to return to a system where my professionalism is questioned daily.

Personally, I’d look abroad or tutor or work in a related field and I know many of my colleagues feel the same.

@Nimbostratus100 You are correct that the government pays a flat rate per child at school (with some minor exceptions eg special needs). What you are missing is that what the flat rate is changes over time eg £7260 in 2009/10 versus £6,640 in 2019/20 https://ifs.org.uk/education-spending/schools. So there’s no guarantee that the same flat rate would be paid for the additional 7% of pupils. As the government is short of cash, my guess is the flat rate would be lower than it is now = worse education for all kids than now.

Also parents who care about education and have money will find other ways to advantage their kids eg tutoring, buying houses in the catchment of the best state schools, move abroad.

So I wouldn’t support as I don’t think it would address inequality and I think it would reduce education quality for all.

I would rather increase funding to state schools by reducing public spending in other areas.

Of course, the root cause is in the family and that is something the current government is doing nothing about beyond occasional vague soundbites about how unacceptable the situation is.
That's the elephant in the room, that and the fact that services that support families and children have been stripped to the bone so children/families who would have been supported don't get what they need (eg family support workers, social services, youth workers, intervention teams for young offenders and those at risk of offending, alcohol/drug services for parents, mental health support, CAMHS referrals, EdPsych appointments, SALT, therapeutic interventions, surestart, decent early years support for families, and a whole host of other things).

At the moment children with SEN and mental health needs are being failed, which is awful and puts parents in impossible situations. It's a battle for parents to access anything and it shouldn't be.

Children from dysfunctional families are also being failed because there's not the services to break the cycle of intergenerational harms.

I've worked with diligent and caring parents who have been crying out for help and support and got nothing because their child wasn't in crisis yet.

I've also worked with parents who hate education, don't care, and have no aspirations for their children other than for them to be supervised by us between 9-3.30. The parents are deeply confrontational, abusive to school staff, will excuse their children's behaviour and then shrug their shoulders and tell us that the child is the same at home "but what can you do"?

OP of course, if rich people had to send their DC to state schools, the school system would be better. It's a no brainer. And it's something we should strive for.

@gwrachod bollocks. They'd just pay for tutors and extra-curricular activities. Rough comps in deprived areas won't gain anything.

No more buying up houses by good schools

@AxolotlOnions how do you propose to achieve that? Bussing isn't exactly uncontroversial.

The reality is we would end up with a fairer and better education system if all private schools closed. One only has to look at countries where this is the case.

We would end up like Finland where the posh kids go to the same school so the rich parents make sure the schools are good.

Britain is two-tier though and always will be.

But they’d still be in class with the less advantaged children who would benefit from them being there.

Of course, but none of those things are a barrier to us changing how we do things. Geographic size: France and Finland are much bigger and they manage it, Belgium and Luxemburg are smaller and so do they. Population: Finland massively smaller, France and Germany about the same, they're doing ok. Laws can be changed. Culture... well, when there's no alternative of course it becomes part of our culture but it can also change.

Grammar schools used to be a big part of the system and now they're not. The Tories said they were going to allow them to expand into all areas but have failed to as they know they don't improve social mobility. Kent has the most number of grammar schools in the UK, it is also the LEAST socially mobile county in the whole country.

Haha! State schools cost much less than 20k per pupil!

Maybe everybody else is more selfless than me, but this is not an argument that would have convinced me to send my children to poor state schools instead of paying school fees. My husband and I were responsible for bringing our children up and for their welfare. We would not have sent them to schools where they would have received a substandard education and had to contend with abysmal behaviour from classmates on the offchance that having our intelligent, well-behaved children in the room would somehow convince their classmates that education was worth something.

This.

I moved abroad. It's completely different