Closing all private schools would benefit state schools

[Nimbostratus100]

I've been thinking about that the argument of state schools not being able to accommodate another 7 % of pupils. It really doesn't add up

For one thing, state schools are frequently in a situation of having to accommodate 7% more pupils and they just stretch and cope. It wouldn't be any different.

And each pupil brings in more government funding.

And if all the private schools closed, we would have a fresh pool of 14% more teachers! More funding for teachers in state schools, and a massive increase in numbers of teacher applying!

Given that many vacancies are currently attracting zero applicants, this could be a total game changer!

Of course some teachers in private schools would not apply to state schools, an would just leave teaching instead, and some would not be qualified to teach in state schools.

But then, we wouldn't be taking in 7% more pupils, either, given how many private school pupils are overseas, or have parents overseas, and would just move to board in another country.

So say 5% more pupils, and maybe 12% more teachers! fantastic! even more so when you consider the resources potentially freed up - many of our best resources were donated 10 or 20 years ago by private schools, they might have untold wealth in the form of sports equipment, science equipment, technology, test books, musical instruments! working photocopiers!!! school furniture!

And potentially, even school premises

OP please could you tell me how the needs of pupils like my DS1 will be met in this new system? Our LA pays for him to attend an independent special school over an hour away from us because it is the only school anywhere remotely near that meets his needs. His needs cannot be met in any of the more local state specialist schools.

What will happen to my son’s school, and its students, and its highly specialist teachers when independent schools cease to exist?

JFC. This has been done to death. Leave it alone.

Cost? Source of additional funding?

Where I live there are 4 main private schools and some smaller ones. There are also 4 (I think) state schools that are over subscribed. All of them are over subscribed. They are building entire housing estates (over 1,000 houses) in this area. There are no more secondaries being built. If the private schools folded, where will these children go? The government won't be able to fund the extra children because that 'spare' tax money is already allocated elsewhere. There is no space to house extra children in the secondary schools. Teachers would probably leave in droves. Teaching is hard wherever you do it, but teaching smaller groups is much more enjoyable. I think you are being a little naïve to be honest. Sad though the situation is. I work in a private school and I pay nearly all my wages to send my child there. For the small classes, and for the fantastic experiences. Freeing up my tax for other things.

@gwrachod another misconception...many private schools are not selective. The one I work in is not and we provide an all round education for those at all points on the academic spectrum. People do travel a long way to us, because we can help their child who would be lost in a huge comp achieve what they are capable of, even if that's just a handful of GCSEs at grades 3/4. They get loads of sport, over 100 clubs and activities and small classes.

Why would they do that?

Socialists tend to be ideologues meaning they will sacrifice things such as children’s education on the altar of their ideals. Plus they love a bit of soak the “rich” - red in tooth and claw. Revoking the charitable status of private schools is a nasty, impractical idea that will cost more than it generates and do untold damage. I expect the Labour Party will enact it in full.

@Nimbostratus100 you are living in cloud cuckoo land about suddenly have lots of extra teachers. Even independents are struggling to recruit staff. I work with quite a few who vow they will never work in a state school again for a variety of reasons.

The real problem we have now is that teacher training recruitment has been falling especially at secondary levels. That’s the problem to solve (oh and retention)

Children sometimes travel miles to private schools, though

They do. Because their parents can afford it. And because if you’re paying, the school bus can stop close to the end of your road.

I don’t want teachers from private school teaching my children, the ones I know who teach in private are the ones who couldn’t hack it in state school.

Well that's pretty silly imo. Just because many private school teachers might not want to hack it in state schools, it doesn't mean they can't. Many, like me, will have already worked in state schools anyway. Many of the ones who defected private schools will probably be the ones who have great references and cvs and excellent qualifications, otherwise why would a good private school choose to employ them? So they are a loss to the state sector, and a state school would probably be only too happy to have them back!
Of course there are also less good private schools which might have attracted less good, less well-qualified teachers who aren't great at classroom management, but those are certainly not exclusive to private schools!

There is already of lack of funding for state education. Increasing the number of students won’t generate extra resources, it’ll just mean that current resources will have to be further divided. The pot of money won’t just magically increase because there are more people who need it.

The government can’t ‘just’ close private schools, any more than it can ‘just’ strip private schools of charitable status. The latter is the remit of the charity commission, which does recognise the charitable nature of private schools (affirmed by a court case). If a government attempted to do either then it would result in a lengthy and expensive legal battle, which they would in no way be guaranteed to win.

The fact that other charities are closing down is irrelevant. A charity dissolving itself is a different matter entirely to the government dissolving one on purely ideological grounds.

You're mudding the point. The lack of money is a political decision. The government choose not to prioritise schools.

If the rich had to send their DC there, that would change. That's the whole point.

The rich wouldn’t just shrug and send their children to any old state school. That is a fantasy. Some will buy up property in catchment areas of excellent schools and essentially privatise them. Some will send their kids to be educated abroad, and some with either homeschool with tutors, and/or form homeschooling cooperatives with other parents in the same situation.

Plus, any change like this wouldn't happen overnight. I would imagine there would be a transition period, allowing those DC already at private secondaries to finish their education, and for the state sector to be prepared - including significant investment

This is imagining that any policies in education happen on a sensible timescale. They don't, they happen to election timetables. So if, say, a Labour government wanted to enact this, they would have less than 5 years to get it through parliament and actually enacted otherwise they would risk a Conservative government winning the next election and just binning all the changes. This is why Gove rushed all his curriculum changes at ridiculous speed.

Also, the state education system needs significant investment just to bring it up to an adequate standard (in terms of teachers, school buildings etc). This needs to be the focus. The idea that a government might fanny around with the private system, potentially putting even more burden on the state system instead of putting all their energy into the state system is really depressing.

I agree with this. 🙈

There is so much wrong with your thinking that it is hard to know where to start. Putting aside the legal and democratic issues regarding choice, I take it you are not a teacher. Schools are currently so overstretched that they really would break if your suggestion were to happen. Not all private schools are full of top performing, beautifully behaved kids. They have their share of behaviour problems, additional needs and so on too. Some children has switches from state to private precisely because they could not cope in a class of 32 for a whole variety of reasons.

There are over 600,000 children in private schools in the UK. This is in the region of an extra 19,000 classrooms and 30,000 teachers. Or are you suggesting that the state also forcibly takes the private property of these schools and, with them, takes on responsibility for the maintenance of the many listed buildings that they own?

@IncessantNameChanger that would only work in urban areas.

My DC attended an outstanding secondary school. It was a fantastic school, great teaching and great pastoral care. It was the only secondary school in a 10 mile radius, so took every child in catchment. That included children from middle class homes, children who lived in social housing, children in receipt of FSM and PP. Very few people sent their dc to private schools because there wasn't a huge advantage. One of the villages in the catchment area was seen as less desirable as it was a new build village, and so house prices there were considerably lower than in areas in a different catchment.

Many people live in areas where there is no real choice about schooling, because there is only one school in the area.

I agree with this too. I would love for the state provision to meet both of my children’s needs. Currently it doesn’t.

Yes and no. Of course money can be redirected, but where will it be taken from? Something else will suffer to accommodate the greater number of students to be paid for. The wealthy will still give their children an advantage through tutoring/extra curricular. There still will be no equality, nor an improvement in the current standards, merely more children to educate.

Some will send their kids to be educated abroad, and some with either homeschool with tutors, and/or form homeschooling cooperatives with other parents in the same situation.
This
We are far from rich, but even in the current situation we would consider homeschooling with tutors if we were allocated certain secondary schools in our area.
As a teacher myself it's not that I think teachers in those schools are bad teachers. I think those schools have to spend more time and effort dealing with the impact of cuts to other services and trying to undo decades of poor community views of school than they do getting on with educating.

The idea that people with the resources to choose otherwise will start settling for poor quality education for their children is unrealistic. There are lots of non-rich parents who don't want their children in schools on the brink of collapse or in a large MAT chain that police children looking out the window.

At least one of your examples is not a great success for state takeover of a private school. In fact, it looks much more like a failure.

Colston Girls’ School (renamed to Montpelier High School) was rated inadequate by Ofsted and (if you don’t rate Ofsted) the headteacher was convicted of sexual assault of a 16yo.

https://reports.ofsted.gov.uk/provider/23/135581

Other countries manage it, why are these things only impossible in the UK?

If I don’t manage to get one of the 4 state schools I will be putting down (still a very real possibility as they are all oversubscribed) DD will have to go private.

If private were not an option, I’d rather move to homeschooling than put my child in the school we will be offered.

This is exactly the point.

No one wants their DC in failing state schools.

But the schools are allowed to continue to be underfunded and overstretched as it doesn't affect those writing the policies or their friends.

All DC should get a decent education, appropriate to their needs.

While the rich can opt out of our state schools,they will contribute to be neglected.

If this change happened, they would be mad to close the private schools overnight and give the state system no time to prepare, so your DC wouldn't have to suddenly go to your local school.