AIBU to think teachers are not paid that well in England and Wales

[ImaynotliketheEducationSecretary]

If salaries in England are so "good" why then are salaries in Scotland £9K higher?

If salaries are so good, why then apart from the NE and Scotland (who are on far better salaries) are teachers, 4-5 years post qualified, paid less than the average salary? If salaries are so good, why could so few teachers even think about buying a house? By the way, I by no means think teachers in Scotland are overpaid. I think they probably are paid far, far more fairly than E or W)

Do we really think so little of education that that is what teachers are paid? People who need degrees and post-grad qualifications to teach their subject? Who need passion and empathy to care about their students? Who do not just do 9-3 in the classroom - but, many, many hours outside the classroom too?

Read below and if you really think teachers salaries are so good, would you, on reading the below, encourage a friend/DC/sibling to join this well-paid profession?

Figures all from end of 2022:
M4 is what you could be earning c4-5 years after qualifying.

Scotland
Teachers Salary - Starting £30,081 & M4 £42,915
House Price average £191,492
6.3 x starting salary
4.5 x M4 salary

Average salary in Scotland in 2022 was £33K
Actually, you maybe OK being a teacher.

Wales
Teachers Salary - Starting £28,866 M4 £33,5877
House Price average £220,326
7.6 x starting salary
6.5 x M4 salary

Average salary in Wales in 2022 was £34K
You maybe OK to be a teacher - but only if you live in a cheaper part of Wales.

England
Teachers Salary - Starting £28,000 & M4 £33,850 ((M4 rising to £39,655 with inner London weighting)
House Price average £313,073 England (North East 162K, SE £402K London £542K)
On average, houses are 11 x starting salary and 9 x M4 salary
Ha ha ha ha if you are in London (13.5 x M4 salary) or South East (12 x M4)
NE teachers are possibly OK a few years later at 4.8 x M4 salary

Average salary in England in 2022 was £33K
North East £29.5K
SE £34.5K
London £42K

Don't be a teacher unless you are in the NE/somewhere cheap to live. How the fuck any London school recruits and retains staff is beyond me.

And, BTW, I am not a teacher. I just went down this rabbit hole as DD was talking of becoming a teacher post-degree....and having gone down said rabbit hole I am not sure I would recommend an extra 9K+ debt to do so. I don't really want her to move to Scotland (we are on the SW).

Teachers clearly are underpaid as can be seen by the struggle to recruit new ones/ keep the ones we have. The tories should be au fait with this quirk of capitalism.

I honestly think most professionals are underpaid in the U.K. salaries have fallen over the last few decades. Not just professionals either tbh. Why is the minimum wage so low you can't possibly live on it? Imo it has to change at some point but the U.K. has lost a lot of its leverage through brexit.
Why would any company invest in business in the U.K. without the 'cheap' salaries and long working hours along with lower working rights for employees?!
I'm not a teacher but a professional and I've seen jobs advertised with a senior salary of my very first actual pay packet. Shocking. And no benefits either.

I agree but I'd say all professions will have to be dragged up salary wise before the public sector can easily justify taking taxes off the rest of the underpaid work force to pay any potential higher wages.

There never used to be such a disparity. So not as much - but they used to be paid as a respected, qualified profession. Maybe my memory is hazy - but it used to be something inspirational, middle/high income. You know - teachers would be living on similar roads/lifestyle as GPs and bank managers.

(And I am fucking old now and talking pre 1980s banking boom).

Links were interesting. A bit tricky as a bit comparing apples and pears as am not sure of the different grades....

https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/1981-07-20/debates/957b3f8f-e2e5-421f-a5b3-331b26f81604/JuniorHospitalDoctors(Salaries)

https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/1986-02-14/debates/447dd7c3-40c9-4ffe-b5e9-cc84b5c71c48/Teachers(Pay)

Salary (I think, bit blurry on grades back then) of a M4 is teacher in 1979 was twice the average salary

Salary of Registrar - was same-ish - double the average salary.

They deserve a bit more, but it's not a badly paid profession. Just average, like many, many other jobs requiring a degree, but with great pension and holidays on top. I'd improve working conditions before pay. Looking at pay in relation to house prices isn't helpful.

Thank you! My memory is not totally fucked and delusional then.

Junior doctors a training post.

So either you compare probationary/nqt and junior doctors or you compare experienced teachers to a gp or a consultant

Eitherway doctors should be paid more

I think it would make sense for those entering certain professions say teaching/nursing/medicine/ core jobs to not pay tuition fees at all. That would maybe help recruitment snd retention. Equally abolish ofsted.

However you also have to remember public se for workers get pensions/good maternity leave/unlimited paid sick leave (I was a TA snd many teachers were constantly off) very good job security so they do get many benefits private sector workers don't

Oddly enough, the higher up you get in the Private Sector the more generous this stuff tends to be as well.

Not if you are trying to run a business in this country!

But salaries (apart from London weighting) are not adjusted to market conditions for teachers. So how else would you demonstrate that a £33K salary in the North East is actually not the same as a £33K salary in Cambridge or Surrey?

I am not sure comparing it to a pint of milk would help? Milk prices do not make up the vast majority of expenditure of most people.

Salaries aren't adjusted to market conditions for any other role either

God I agree with this!

Maybe you have to do X years (5?) in that profession and your tuition fees are wiped out/cleared?

The stats for teacher recruitment are terrifying to be honest. I am glad my youngest has only 4 years left - but I really worry about who will educate my grandchildren. If I have any. my children probably will not be able to afford to have kids

Well, my friend has taught for 10 years so is top of the pay scale. She is Maths coordinator (Primary) and gets an extra £4k for that. So she is on over £50k. Not bad?

“I think it would make sense for those entering certain professions say teaching/nursing/medicine/ core jobs to not pay tuition fees at all. That would maybe help recruitment and retention. Equally abolish ofsted.”

This makes a lot of sense.

In the public sector, maybe.

And I do not necessarily agree with this.

It is all very well if the government can hoik certain functions to a cheaper area in entirety (HMRC/DVLA). But some jobs need doing in situ. Teaching/nursing/doctors/social workers.

If we respect these professions how come in one area they can afford a 4 bed detached, but elsewhere would not even be able to buy a studio flat.

I am not saying I have the answers. Gillian Keegan's offer is certainly not it!

@ImaynotliketheEducationSecretary but teachers are not poorly paid for the U.K. salary wise. Especially not with the benefits that come with it.

Private companies have gone through big globalisation events that have widened the gap between 'local' firms and local jobs and global firms since the 1970's. But at the same time job stability and security within these industries in the private sector is almost non existent whereas I'd say aa a teacher it's still pretty secure. So there are ups and downs for each sector that would have to be reviewed for a genuinely fair company going back so many years. I've worked for a couple of banks. Both have made huge amount of redundancies in the last decade. My dh who is a professional in the private sector has also lost his job twice in the last 10 years. It literally takes years to repair the financial damage as a person in a career who has lost their job. That has to be accounted for when comparing like for like.

@Neededanewuserhandle that is not necessarily true, In my game (financial services) benefits are continually being stripped back. I personally think if the government were to put their job benefit system In line with the private sector then they'd be able to pay more. It's the benefits that often make people like teachers find themselves stumped in the job. It's not common to find so many benefits in the private sector. Not impossible but not common.

*Comparison going back so many years not 'company'

I dont understand the focus on teachers.

Lots of other roles earn the same or less and are just as valuable.

Teachers in England need their contracts and workloads reviewed and their wages brought in line with what Scotland has offered

But I dont see why we should care more about the col in relation to teachers v other roles

When I was early 30s have climbed the pay rung every year and then went through threshold to top, I too thought it was a great salary.

Im now 44 and have to keep pricing in worth UPS3 (which doesn’t mean to maintain my current practices but do more) and my pay will never increase. I was so naive as a youngster and will dissuade my children from becoming teachers because once you’re in UPS3 you’re there forever (unless become SLT).

*proving I’m worth

So become SLT?
You could coordinate a subject, lead a department, take on a pastoral role like HoY, specialise in ALN, go for management as deputy or assistant head? Go for advisory roles? And there are no geographical restrictions, you can teach anywhere in the country. Plus there is no shortage of jobs.

The salary doesn’t go up indefinitely (does it for any job?!) but it’s not like there are no opportunities for promotion in teaching. If you don’t want the promotions then that’s fine, but then you don’t get the cash. Seems fair to me?

Because of the huge recruitment and retention crisis in teaching in England.
Because the issues with Teachers/striking/pay is an issue?
Because Gillian Keegan is showing how little she values teachers and education?

Who are going to be the teachers of the future?

She has a hole in the wall of education (recruitment/retention). Her way of trying to fix it....cardboard..... She is not thinking about the issues now. Or the how these issues will cause the whole building to collapse.

I have friends /RL who are teachers .TBH their salary has just not kept up with inflation.A friend was "let go" after 30 years of service, as they were too expensive! Another couldnt handle the stress of being a head teacher .Interestingly very few of the Governments own families appear to teach!

In order to be able to recruit and retain enough teachers so that you actually have qualified subject teachers in front of all classes, either the workload needs to be significantly reduced or the pay significantly increased. I'd wager that almost all teachers would prefer the former.

@ImaynotliketheEducationSecretary

Except lots of areas are also facing huge recruitment and retention crisis and are striking?

Issues which are nationwide and global in some cases