As a follow on, from the original thread about dover, Chaos in Dover

[Hawkins003]

Just that really, a thread for general thoughts and perspectives about the situation

The problem is now resolved

Yes, it's a shame that they didn't put "lower your expectations" on the side of a bus during the referendum campaign. People might have actually had a better idea of what they were voting for.

So you want the French taxpayer to pay more because the Brits voted for more passport controls?

They used to waive them through before Brexit. I don't really think it's our place to dictate how they should manage immigration into the EU from a third country.

If the UK voted to "take back control" of our borders, surely we have to respect the fact that other countries have the right to control theirs?

I'm pretty sure that they know exactly how long it takes to process an individual coach etc. It's an important part of their business model to optimise the flow through at peak times so they can maximise profits. After all, they don't want to turn down bookings and have spare capacity when it is most profitable for them.

This leads to three conclusions I can think of, either :

a) Something changed to affect the processing conditions relatively quickly (ie in the last few days). That could be the weather, number of staff on duty available to process, or some very recent change in the processing conditions which screwed up their calculations.

b) The number of coaches that they could handle was less that the amount that was booked in.

c) They made some sort of mistake in the calculations or didn't put in enough slack.

Maybe all three, or maybe something else I haven't thought of :)

Because as @RosesInWater has pointed out you can't compare airport infrastructure, many of which have arrangements that have been in place for years with infrastructure to cope with non-Schengen, non-EU traffic, with the set up at Dover, which up until Brexit had the relatively simply task of exclusively facilitating cursory passport checks at a internal EU/non- Schengen frontier.

Certainly having got their heads around the requirements French immigration police (PAF) are pretty quick at our local airports, so it does sounds as if there's very much a Dover factor (rumour being infrastructure).

@notimagain
Free movement of people in the EU came in in 1992. The link between Dover/France has been around a lot longer than that.
Some of us are old enough to remember travelling pre 1992 and the advent of free movement and not having any issues whatsoever. If the French choose to be bolshy and make things difficult for British travellers by striking, rioting, working to rule, operating at minimal staffing levels especially at busy periods, that's up to them.

There also never used to be the requirement for every individual passport to be stamped in and out back then either, but obviously times are different now. "Progress" and "efficiency" have made everyday life more difficult in so many ways - I spent 40 mins in a queue earlier today to speak to a real human at HMRC...

We could have left the EU and had a similar arrangement to Norway. Indeed it was spoken about during the 2016 campaign.

Which would have avoided all this, and probably a part of the small boats issue.

If the capacity to check passports is not there, then sailings should be restricted. Not ideal, but no-one should be forced to wait for hours. The limited capacity because of extra time for checking is why there are now fewer Eurostar trains than pre-2021, and why Heathrow restricted summer flights last year.

Ah yes, I'm old enough to remember travelling to France in the early 70s but anyhow thanks for the reminder about how it worked.. of course don't forget there wasn't the Schengen agreement back then either so the down side of the good old days was that in theory at least passports needed to be checked at every European Border....nowadays for the locals it's definitely more efficient, especially if you live very near an internal Border like we do.

OTOH yes it's extra faff for any non-EU passport holder entering the Schengen zone at any external frontier, not just a French one, who lacks either a Schengen Visa or EU residency permit but the clock isn't going to be wound back to the 70s just because Dover can't cope.

If the French choose to be bolshy and make things difficult for British travellers by striking, rioting, working to rule, operating at minimal staffing levels especially at busy periods, that's up to them.

Glad you said "if" there because with regard to Dover and last weekend - there were no national days of action with regard to the pension reforms over the period - last national day of action here was last Tuesday, FWIW next one is this coming Thursday so it was all quiet on the manifestation/protest/riot around and during last weekend. There was no PAF (i.e. Border police) work to rule either....

Looks like a problem for Dover to "own" and sort out.

It is funny how "progress" makes things "better" isn't it? I went to France on a school trip in 1973 using a passport from the Post Office that I walked in and purchased over the counter. The French officials took a quick look at the kids on the bus (didn't ask to see passports) and we were done.

If the French choose to be bolshy and make things difficult for British travellers by striking, rioting, working to rule, operating at minimal staffing levels especially at busy periods, that's up to them.

No, it is up to the British government to negotiate an agreement that works, in or out of the EU. The French have not suddenly changed. We have just had years of incompetent government.

Totally agree Merrymouse. Why do the French keep voting him in? I suppose with all the chaos and violence in France at the moment, he might do the decent thing and resign. Do Presidents resign?

Macron isn't the problem. Being a third party country is what caused the issues.

We’ve been on Eurostar this weekend. The passport controls were thorough at both ends, and the non-EU queues lengthy.

Well that's the rub. They need training in third country processes. They need to train their staff to deal with the queues quicker or the ferry people need to take less. You can't leave people in horrendous queues.

"They ", as in the Police aux frontières (PAF), aren't newbies at this sort of thing.

They certainly get plenty of training in third country processes in basic training and at most places they end up being posted to / working at they handle third country nationals everyday.

There's certainly nothing unusual, rare or exotic about the third country status, it applies to arrivals in the EU from the likes of USA, African and other nations - PAF personnel at most places have been seeing such arrivals for years.

Now as far as the specifics of Dover goes it does look it can't cope with the numbers, so I'd agree something needs to change, but not sure at all it's PAF training.

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direction_centrale_de_la_Police_aux_fronti%C3%A8res

The arrogance of saying "THEY" need to up their game re 3rd countries, it is astonishing the exceptionalism some people have.

As a pp said (assuming it is French border control that is referred to) the EU is very well trained in processing both non Schengen and 3rd country entrants. Honestly you would think that French border control has never seen a non EU entrant before.

However, there is an issue at Calais, in that the vast majority of entrants are Non EU, whereas at other frontiers entrants are predominantly EU, or non Schengen anyway. So whose responsibility is it to speed things up at Dover then... the 3rd country is my guess. Why should any other EU country change their processes to facilitate a country that voluntarily gave up its right to free movement?

I am trying to stop shouting in frustration here, but Dover Port and the British need to sort this one out. It was self inflicted after all.

"The UK regained the right to control its borders through Brexit... But the EU also regained that same right, & that border now goes down the middle of the English channel. Ministers need to own the consequences"

https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/comment/brexit-borders-dover

Oh and the Dover Port CEO didn't get the memo to "blame the French" either👇

Here he is telling @SimonCalder that🇫🇷spontaneously sent over MORE staff to cope with huge demand caused by the UK's decision to make travel way more difficult for itself !

https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/dover-coach-delays-latest-brexit-mp-french-b2314927.html

So whose responsibility is it to speed things up at Dover then... the 3rd country is my guess.
But how can the UK ie third country speed up the process when it's the French slowing it down?

You say why should any EU country change their processes to facilitate a country who choose a different path - again, the process has changed. Therefore the EU need further training. The status quo has changed.

We are both third countries to each other.

Dover has always been a nightmare, so I know the French are not totally at fault. It's been a bottleneck for nigh on 20 years.

The process hasn't changed. We've changed. "They" don't need training.

Come the new entry/exit system later this year it will take much longer.

And if you haven't read any of the other gazillion posts on this subject our Government turned down the opportunity to double passport control.

Honestly you would think that French border control has never seen a non EU entrant before.

Unbelievable isn't it..

FWIW the slow down due to the change to third county status was obvious at our local (French) airport immediately it happened and it continues to this day:

I often arrive there on an ex-UK flight that as routine lands just after the scheduled arrival of a flight from Tunis - both ex-Schengen, so everybody to passport control, there's been no change there.

It used to be that once the Tunis passengers (third nation status) had got through the PAF desks the rate of progress of the queue accelerated because the PAF were then just doing a cursory check on Brits.

Now if you arrive just after the Tunis the rate doesn't change once the Tunis passengers have gone through because the (experienced) PAF officers have perform the third nation process on the Brits as well.

It's simply a longer process.

@notimagain I am baffled at some comments that think Brits should get special treatment at Dover/Calais and French border staff should have more training. Now maybe I am just in a grotty mood today or something, but like your story, there are more than Brits entering France as a 3rd country entrant. But no, Brits are special and the French are just Jambons!

Oh my word. Anyway I do acknowledge the issue at Calais (or the British soil equivalent) border where the majority of entrants are non EU i.e. Brexit Brits.

To say that French border control needs further training is just arrogance personified, and if I were a French border guard I'd be slipping on my latex gloves with a snap and making them bend over for an intimate search!

Sorry probably a bit graphic, but that's my mood about this today and not meant literally.

And it's Customs/Douane that don the latex gloves not BC. Sorry, but the sentiment is the same.