Page 11 | To think there should be some kind of national reflection on the pandemic?

23rdmarch2020 · 2023-03-20T18:46:12+00:00

It’s coming up to three years since the first lockdown. In many ways, it feels an absolute age ago. From personal experience, my life completely changed in the space of a week and so many things happened in my life that never would have because of the pandemic (some good, some bad). For some, it has been an absolute tragedy. In the space of a few weeks we went from being in our normal lives to it being a criminal offence to step outside our homes without a valid excuse. Obviously people are keen to move on but AIBU to think there should be more reflection on the pandemic than there has been?

shrimp88 · 21/03/2023 20:06

BashirWithTheGoodBeard · 21/03/2023 19:50

I hope so.

It interests me that more people who believe lockdown was the best option and who think it might be needed in the future don't push harder for this, actually. You'd think people who are that certain would be happy to have proof instead of just belief.

After all, as things stand now, if we had another pandemic we wouldn't have another lockdown here, not a successful one anyway. The combination of circumstances that would be needed to make it both viable and accepted don't exist any more. I'm not saying they never will again, if nothing else this government will be out soon and the parliamentary arithmetic is one of the things that would prevent lockdown at present. But multiple things would have to change on a societal and political level, and we've no guarantee they would. Proof that we did go for the lesser of two evils could be very significant.

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People don't need to push for research into the pros and cons of this lockdown as it will be happening around the world anyway. It's not something that can be answered in parliament or a report because it's a very complicated question. Even when we do get a clearer picture it won't tell us whether it's worth having a lockdown for future pandemics if they happen because the disease and society will be different.The disease could be more deadly, more infectious and affect different demographics ,(including young people for example). Or we might have other ways if reducing spread such as better air filtration.

BashirWithTheGoodBeard · 21/03/2023 20:12

shrimp88 · 21/03/2023 20:06

People don't need to push for research into the pros and cons of this lockdown as it will be happening around the world anyway. It's not something that can be answered in parliament or a report because it's a very complicated question. Even when we do get a clearer picture it won't tell us whether it's worth having a lockdown for future pandemics if they happen because the disease and society will be different.The disease could be more deadly, more infectious and affect different demographics ,(including young people for example). Or we might have other ways if reducing spread such as better air filtration.

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Obviously it's a complicated picture, that's a given. Nor is anyone suggesting Parliament are going to be able to answer this question, even if it weren't an obviously daft idea to put people in charge of assessing their own performance. I don't know whether sufficient research would happen without people pushing for it and don't see how anyone else could either, hence didn't comment on that part.

What we can do though is ensure we're in a position where we have more information than we did in March 2020, at which point lockdown was nothing more than a guess, albeit one that we couldn't possibly have avoided. It will also be useful to have some of the downsides more clearly spelled out so nobody can claim we didn't know things that were bleeding obvious at the time.

shrimp88 · 21/03/2023 20:22

BashirWithTheGoodBeard · 21/03/2023 20:12

Obviously it's a complicated picture, that's a given. Nor is anyone suggesting Parliament are going to be able to answer this question, even if it weren't an obviously daft idea to put people in charge of assessing their own performance. I don't know whether sufficient research would happen without people pushing for it and don't see how anyone else could either, hence didn't comment on that part.

What we can do though is ensure we're in a position where we have more information than we did in March 2020, at which point lockdown was nothing more than a guess, albeit one that we couldn't possibly have avoided. It will also be useful to have some of the downsides more clearly spelled out so nobody can claim we didn't know things that were bleeding obvious at the time.

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What are people claiming we didn't know about the downsides that were obvious at the time?. Lockdown didn't just happen in the UK and there will be academics around the world looking at the pros and cons.

jays · 21/03/2023 20:24

MySugarBabyLove · 20/03/2023 19:53

Honestly? I think people don’t actually realise how easy we had it here.

Our measures were minimal compared to the majority of the rest of the world, and still people think that there should be a national reflection?

Reflection on what?

On the fact you didn’t have to have a letter to leave your house? (Spain/Italy)

The fact you were able to drink alcohol? (South Africa)

The fact no-one came round to inspect your house every day to make sure that you hadn’t been out? (China).

The fact that our borders weren’t closed for almost two years? (New Zealand.

Honestly the Uk had probably one of the least harsh lockdowns in the whole world.

I was forced to watch my mother die on a camera phone. What planet are you on? I’m glad you weren’t affected but maybe have some empathy for the thousands who were.

BashirWithTheGoodBeard · 21/03/2023 20:36

shrimp88 · 21/03/2023 20:22

What are people claiming we didn't know about the downsides that were obvious at the time?. Lockdown didn't just happen in the UK and there will be academics around the world looking at the pros and cons.

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Looks like you mean where are people doing that and it was an autocorrect? Claims that hindsight is everything and similar when people talk about downsides come up all the time in discussions on here. I think I've been in some of them with this username and talked about things we already knew full well in March 2020, so by all means do a search if you're interested.

As for the rest, another thing nobody thinks is that lockdown only happened in the UK.

JenniferBooth · 21/03/2023 20:37

The reason ive seen given for people switching off their emergency alerts on their phones is because of lack of trust in the Government because of the shit they have put us through over the last three years. I just know they will abuse this system.

You reap what you sow.

shrimp88 · 22/03/2023 08:37

BashirWithTheGoodBeard · 21/03/2023 20:36

Looks like you mean where are people doing that and it was an autocorrect? Claims that hindsight is everything and similar when people talk about downsides come up all the time in discussions on here. I think I've been in some of them with this username and talked about things we already knew full well in March 2020, so by all means do a search if you're interested.

As for the rest, another thing nobody thinks is that lockdown only happened in the UK.

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I have seen people saying that we didn't know what the benefits of lockdown would be with regard to how many lives it would save. How could we when we didn't know how many people covid would make very ill or kill if there was no lockdown? I haven't seen people state that we couldn't know of the negatives that you state were "bleeding obvious " Alot of what you state are negatives of lockdown (lack of treatment for other conditions) didn't happen because of lockdown because hospitals weren't in lockdown . They were open but very busy treating covid patients, other patients with limited staff as many had covid. Or do you the HCP were all at home with their feet up during lockdown?

BashirWithTheGoodBeard · 22/03/2023 09:15

shrimp88 · 22/03/2023 08:37

I have seen people saying that we didn't know what the benefits of lockdown would be with regard to how many lives it would save. How could we when we didn't know how many people covid would make very ill or kill if there was no lockdown? I haven't seen people state that we couldn't know of the negatives that you state were "bleeding obvious " Alot of what you state are negatives of lockdown (lack of treatment for other conditions) didn't happen because of lockdown because hospitals weren't in lockdown . They were open but very busy treating covid patients, other patients with limited staff as many had covid. Or do you the HCP were all at home with their feet up during lockdown?

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I believe you that you haven't seen them but it doesn't actually affect the point.

Also, it wasn't me who mentioned lack of treatment for other conditions, you appear to have the wrong poster there.

Oopsadaisysgranny · 22/03/2023 09:33

I lost my parents to Covid . It would be nice to have a day to remember everyone who died due to Covid . We took all the precautions but they had to go into hospitals and both caught it thee .

Buzzinwithbez · 22/03/2023 09:51

BashirWithTheGoodBeard · 21/03/2023 20:12

Obviously it's a complicated picture, that's a given. Nor is anyone suggesting Parliament are going to be able to answer this question, even if it weren't an obviously daft idea to put people in charge of assessing their own performance. I don't know whether sufficient research would happen without people pushing for it and don't see how anyone else could either, hence didn't comment on that part.

What we can do though is ensure we're in a position where we have more information than we did in March 2020, at which point lockdown was nothing more than a guess, albeit one that we couldn't possibly have avoided. It will also be useful to have some of the downsides more clearly spelled out so nobody can claim we didn't know things that were bleeding obvious at the time.

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What we can do is retrospectively risk asess each intervention and come up with best practise for the future.
The disaster plans that were best practise were thrown out the window so what happens now?

shrimp88 · 22/03/2023 12:04

Buzzinwithbez · 22/03/2023 09:51

What we can do is retrospectively risk asess each intervention and come up with best practise for the future.
The disaster plans that were best practise were thrown out the window so what happens now?

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I am sure many researchers will look into what interventions were effective against COVID. However future pandemic's may be caused by very different pathogens and the spread/mortality rate will be very different. So what works against COVID won't necessarily work against other diseases and things that didn't work against COVID could be more effective against other pathogens.

JenniferBooth · 22/03/2023 13:54

People in relationships who didnt live together were banned from meeting up indoors and having sex. And people had the cheek to moan when 1984 was brought up

shrimp88 · 22/03/2023 14:56

JenniferBooth · 22/03/2023 13:54

People in relationships who didnt live together were banned from meeting up indoors and having sex. And people had the cheek to moan when 1984 was brought up

Yes, there were a lot of ridiculous rules at the beginning and that was one of them.

BashirWithTheGoodBeard · 22/03/2023 15:02

The disaster plans that were best practise were thrown out the window so what happens now?

This, in particular, will need to be analysed. Whether lockdown was the best option or not, it indisputably involved us not following our existing pandemic planning and we need to talk about where that leaves the entire concept of preparedness. While it's obvious why that actually happened, we need to talk about procedure as much as anything else.

PeekAtYou · 22/03/2023 15:06

I wonder if we'll see any other ministerial WhatsApp conversations. It corroborated what we suspected but good for the population to know.

BashirWithTheGoodBeard · 22/03/2023 15:08

PeekAtYou · 22/03/2023 15:06

I wonder if we'll see any other ministerial WhatsApp conversations. It corroborated what we suspected but good for the population to know.

Good question. I know Hancock had already handed over his messages before the leak. Not sure if any of the others did the same. I daren't even imagine what Johnson's phone from that time would show up.

jays · 22/03/2023 15:29

Teafor1please · 20/03/2023 22:27

My mum died on her own and I don't want to look back on any of it.

So did mine and I feel the same way you do. I’m so sorry. X

Teafor1please · 22/03/2023 15:34

jays · 22/03/2023 15:29

So did mine and I feel the same way you do. I’m so sorry. X

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So sad. I'm so sorry to hear that.

jays · 22/03/2023 15:47

derxa · 21/03/2023 06:28

I'm vaccine injured. We're the forgotten people. But yes let's bang on about Boris and his 'parties'.

I’m so sorry to hear this. You have been forgotten and treated like collateral damage and I can’t begin to imagine how truly would that is, I think of those who have been vaccine injured often, which I know doesn’t make any difference to you or anyone who is living with life changing injury now, I wanted to say I have seen what people have gone through, being gaslit and discarded, told they’re making things up, ignored and left to get on with it with no help, I’m so sorry you’ve had to go through this.

Buzzinwithbez · 22/03/2023 16:04

BashirWithTheGoodBeard · 22/03/2023 15:02

The disaster plans that were best practise were thrown out the window so what happens now?

This, in particular, will need to be analysed. Whether lockdown was the best option or not, it indisputably involved us not following our existing pandemic planning and we need to talk about where that leaves the entire concept of preparedness. While it's obvious why that actually happened, we need to talk about procedure as much as anything else.

This was tweeted today. It sounds like best practise was thrown out the window long before this pandemic happened, but I note she says there were plans, planners and planning and that everything was a choice.

To think there should be some kind of national reflection on the pandemic?

Buzzinwithbez · 22/03/2023 16:10

shrimp88 · 22/03/2023 12:04

I am sure many researchers will look into what interventions were effective against COVID. However future pandemic's may be caused by very different pathogens and the spread/mortality rate will be very different. So what works against COVID won't necessarily work against other diseases and things that didn't work against COVID could be more effective against other pathogens.

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I'm not talking about what was effective. I'm talking about where the risk assessment was for each one for the inevitable consequences

BashirWithTheGoodBeard · 22/03/2023 16:13

Buzzinwithbez · 22/03/2023 16:10

I'm not talking about what was effective. I'm talking about where the risk assessment was for each one for the inevitable consequences

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Yes, the evident fact that this approach wasn't taken is something that needs to be researched in itself. The events, the implications and how to stop that happening again.

Buzzinwithbez · 22/03/2023 16:55

This is astonishing too

March 2020: SAGE and SPI-B authors
“perceived level of personal threat needs to be increased among those who are complacent, using hard-hitting emotional messaging”
assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/upl…

Now in the bmj
Some of the SPI-B members
"The UK government’s attempt to frighten people into covid protective behaviours was at odds with its scientific advice"

https://www.bmj.com/content/380/bmj.p652

The UK government’s attempt to frighten people into covid protective behaviours was at odds with its scientific advice

The scientific literature shows that fear is generally an ineffective way of persuading people to engage in health protective behaviours Among the many revelations from recent leaked UK Government WhatsApp messages published by The Daily Telegraph is...

https://www.bmj.com/content/380/bmj.p652

Doone21 · 22/03/2023 17:11

By all means lets waste another 3 yrs talking about the stupid pointless shit we were all forced to endure...that's really going to make up for our lost time isn't it

Badbadbunny · 22/03/2023 17:18

Doone21 · 22/03/2023 17:11

By all means lets waste another 3 yrs talking about the stupid pointless shit we were all forced to endure...that's really going to make up for our lost time isn't it

I'm more concerned about doing things better next time. And yes, there will be a next time. We (and I mean the whole World, not just the UK) made mistakes, and we (the whole World) need to properly examine what worked, what didn't. And I don't just mean governments either, I mean also on an individual basis - what we, as individuals, did and what we, as individuals could have done better.

I'm all in favour of "reflection" as long as it's with a view to doing things better next time rather than just pointless/random naval gazing.