Trivialising everyday sexism adds to the bigger problem.

[Whatdoyouthinkof]

I’ve starting thinking about how society encourages younger women/girls to romanticise sexist behaviour in men until they end up in real day to day life with adult responsibilities of children and a job and realise that perhaps allowing a man to call the shots or letting them believe their identity/wants were more superior has created a situation with women making more sacrifices in their lives?

The behaviour I think of is..women changing their maiden names and not really questioning that tradition, Disney films focusing on romantic relationships with men and girls being saved..can’t think of a single show aimed at boys focusing on their romances with women. Women waiting for men to decide to marry them when the time is right for them. Men’s names first on Christmas cards Obviously there are the huge problems of gender pay etc. but I’m thinking of the mindset which is created in smaller acts.

Am I unreasonable to think not worrying about the smaller problems/mindset and calling them trivial add to the big problems?

Precisely. Women are doing themselves a massive disservice by buying into the idea that marriage is patriarchal - look at all the threads on here with women who are financially and practically screwed over when their unmarried relationship breaks down, leaving them holding the baby (literally) and with no legal protection.

I did absolutely none of the patriarchal traditions of marriage. None. My marriage is a partnership of equals, in which in fact I benefit more (because I had to have the babies).

We need to start with the children though. Every time that my daughter is pushed away on a playground or pushed out of a trampoline it's by a boy just because they're bigger/stronger. And the mothers see it and say nothing. That's where males learn that their comfort and pleasure is more inportant than females.

Start with your sons.

• The concept of marriage as a partnership is not new. It predates Christianity. So over two thousand years at least.

• The equality or inequality women existed regardless of the existence of marriage. So the fact that historically women, including married women, were not equal to men has nothing to do with marriage itself.

• Your mum and dad having to marry to have sex is not a rule of marriage, but caused by the impact of a patriarchal religion (probably Christianity) on marriage that includes the religious rule prohibiting sex outside marriage- the sin of fornication. PreChristianity among the Britons the rule was you could sleep together outside of marriage at certain fertility festivals and for couples, marriage was only encouraged once the woman fell pregnant as a means to ensure her boyfriend would support his girlfriend and the cost of raising the coming child. In addition, among the Britons was the concept of group marriages where men and women could have more than one husband or wife at the same time.

• Modern marriage has gotten less religious and has drifted towards the old ways in that it is now focussed as a contract which is designed to protect mostly women’s (or rarely men’s)financial security if one parent decides to end the relationship.

I'm with you @Whatdoyouthinkof We need to question the "small stuff" eg ...

Why is it still largely expected that women will change their surnames to their husband's on marriage but men don't take the woman's surname? The nearest men get to exhibiting equality here is double-barrelled.

Why do women get asked whether they are Mrs, Miss, or Ms, whereas men only have Mr (Master is rarely used)? Why is it still the default the women are asked to announce their marital status in this way yet men aren't?

Why do so many men expect their children to take their surname when they aren't married to the children's mother? And why are so many women happy to do so?

PreChristianity among the Britons the rule was you could sleep together outside of marriage at certain fertility festivals and for couples, marriage was only encouraged once the woman fell pregnant as a means to ensure her boyfriend would support his girlfriend and the cost of raising the coming child.

This model survived after Christianity in many places, eg Scottish 'handfasting' I think? Not sure it was a great idea for women though.

Tbf, girls are bigger and stronger than boys before boys catch up due to earlier puberty. I saw girls pushing boys out of the way from ages 7-10 and then it reversed. So if we are to start on the playground, we have to focus on both boys and girls.

IME schools do the opposite - even if DH phone is down as call first I get called first - and they get narked I'm not always instantly available even if they say it's non urgent.

I hate Miss/Mrs and MS - I could do with the prefixes entriely.

I did change my surname - I did think about it though and I preferred his - I married fairly early in life and it was still a fucking pain in arse to get the changes made everywhere - I wouldn't bother again. DSis gave her kids their dad name having not married and she gets hacked off at people "correcting" her name to theirs despite what she writes on forms.

Street harassment is my big one though - that's frequently minimised and some of that isn't just annoying or intimidating it can feel very dangerous.

Yes many old ways persisted despite the Christian priests best efforts to stamp them out. Handfasting was really more a recognition and public announcement of an exclusive sexual relationship for a year and a day so if the woman did fall pregnant, the community knew which Tom to tell to commit to marriage.

Of course its a false equivalence, that was the point but it's what tends to happen in real life because women are not automatically shown the same respect as is accorded to men.

I’ve never seen it happen in real life that way. I go to market and the grocer calls me & women love and the men mate. I go to a restaurant or hotel and I am called madam and my husband sir.

Only time I’ve seen it is when it’s obviously classism rather than sexism.

@Onnabugeisha

Tbf, girls are bigger and stronger than boys before boys catch up due to earlier puberty. I saw girls pushing boys out of the way from ages 7-10 and then it reversed. So if we are to start on the playground, we have to focus on both boys and girls.

You're spectacularly missing my point: when girls do that they get told off and to be kind. It's when boys do that that "boys will be boys" and it's accepted.

Sorry I haven't read the full thread, in a rush but wanted to comment.

A friend has just talked to me about the "banter" in her local government office. I work in a different department.
Male manager says get back in the kitchen or the bedroom, bloody women, women cause me all the problems.
He never ever says anything similar as banter to men in that they "should get back down the pit!"

He is apparently allowed to as it is "Just how Fred is". It's a jest.

It's appalling in my opinion. I would never put up with it.
What do other women think?
I am so cross as I know the women in the department are capable and hardworking.

No the girls don’t get told off. The mothers that say nothing say nothing no matter whether a boy or girl is being pushy. The mothers that say something, say it no matter whether a boy or a girl is being pushy.

I don’t agree that the majority of mothers are closet sexists that tell off girls but allow boys.

No such thing as banter.

I’d be putting in a formal complaint about this abject sexism.

Well there is such a thing as office banter like being known as the office jelly doughnut monster or the king of post it notes and then there is sexism. The examples were not banter, but sexism.

IME schools do the opposite - even if DH phone is down as call first I get called first

Of course, children are women's problem and you can't expect a dad, god forbid, to leave heir important man-job to pick up a sick child.
So banking documents, house deeds, Christmas cards - men first.
School bake sale - women.

I call them all out with my 7 year old. She knows what sexism means. She knows that not that long ago people couldnt do xyz just because they were girls. She knows that Disney is silly for making marrying the prince the most important thing. Etc etc.

Yes this is part of the same problem, men deal with public things like bills, money, tax etc, women with domestic things like children.

Like I said previously it's so ingrained that my friend had the school phone her up to check she wasn't in an abusive relationship because her stay at home dad was being "controlling" by answering questions about their DD who he was the main carer for.