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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think employers want applicants to bend over backwards

201 replies

jobhunter25 · 14/03/2023 10:22

During the recruitment process? I'm currently searching for a new job and can't believe how many hoops some companies expect people to jump through, for shitty pay/benefits might I add. I left my last role around a month ago (unhappy for years, toxic environment) and luckily I had some savings I was able to live off but I'm now ready to get back into work. I've applied for around 15-20 jobs and I've realised that employers don't just invite candidates in for an interview if they like their C.V anymore. It's so long winded. For example, a role that I applied for (pay is between 18-22k btw) wanted me to take a 45 minute test, and if I passed they would call me for a pre-screen chat and if they thought I was suitable they'd invite me in for an interview. I actually emailed them back this morning saying I'd been offered another job as I really couldn't be arsed with the hassle, not for 22k anyway. I understand companies being more thorough with a high paying role though. AIBU?

OP posts:
Merryoldgoat · 14/03/2023 22:17

@Tabitha005

How though? How can they even function in the role?

Or is it more supervisory/strategic and they expect their team to do the donkey work?

I mean, it doesn’t surprise me - I got a job as an accountant before any quals because I passed the tests several qualified accountants couldn’t.

A fully qualified candidate I recently interviewed couldn’t prepare a payroll journal which blew my mind but it’s why I have to test.

Minesril · 15/03/2023 06:52

I quite like having to do a (relevant) test or task. I'm rubbish at interviews so it's a chance to actually show what I can do!

underneaththeash · 15/03/2023 07:03

SilverGlitterBaubles · 14/03/2023 19:06

When DD was applying for a weekend job on min wage in retail for 8 hours PW, she had to submit a CV, complete online application forms, answer lengthy questionnaires (one was 70 questions) answer situational questions and a paragraph about why she wanted the role or about how she might fit in with the company's ethos. This was all in pre screening before she got near speaking to an actual person. You can see why someone might think they really can't be bothered. The only good thing is she has become quite the expert at this game and just tells them exactly what they want to hear according to the job spec it is just so time consuming and not always relevant to the position advertised.

If the government is serious about getting people back into the workforce they need to address this.

DS had the same recently, I’d come in to ask him if he’d finished the application yet (after about 30 minutes) and he said he was only about 1/4 of the way through. Anyway he had his EPQ submission date coming up - so I did it for him. Very dull and pretty pointless.

I used to recruit for the customer service/retail side of opticians and basically you want someone personable, who speaks English, good personal hygiene who won’t steal money from the till. The rest you can train.

Cassiusclay · 15/03/2023 07:09

For my job I had to do a situational judgement test, numerical and verbal reasoning, all online. Then on the interview day I had to facilitate a stakeholder session and use that to help draft a presentation I gave during the interview. Took all bloody day. And the job is shite as it turns out.

SilverGlitterBaubles · 15/03/2023 07:45

@underneaththeash Agreed, I sometimes think it is actually more of an endurance test to see who is actually willing to jump through their hoops. As I've said previously if the government wants to encourage people back to work then they have very little chance of older retirees putting up with this kind of process.

Badbadbunny · 15/03/2023 08:06

Tabitha005 · 14/03/2023 21:34

My boss doesn't know what an accrual is, either.... and they're a finance manager on £40k a year with no accounting or finance qualifications whatsoever. They'd struggle to get recruited into a basic bookkeeping role were they ever to leave the lush environs of the role they've accidentally - and very luckily - found themselves in.

It's unfathomable that some people hang onto a position they're blatantly unqualified for so, in my view, screening and tests are quite often necessary to avoid accidentally recruiting an idiot - or charlatan - you can't then easily get shot of. And, a good HR function can be instrumental in that process when it comes to skill-testing candidates.

One of my clients is an IT training firm. They got contracted by our local council to provide bespoke 1-2-1 training for a newly appointed finance officer. The contract was Sage and Excel training, but they had to start at basics because when they tried the Sage training, it became clear the new appointee had no knowledge nor experience of book-keeping, so they had to do the simplest of things first such as double entry theory, what a journal does, bank recs, etc. They couldn't believe someone with zero accounting knowledge could blag a top finance job - but they were happy with the extended contract which was worth many thousands to them in training fees!

Neededanewuserhandle · 15/03/2023 08:14

Maybe Councils have to take crappy finance (and other people) because they pay such awful wages?

Neededanewuserhandle · 15/03/2023 08:15

evilharpy · 14/03/2023 19:36

I use pivot tables almost daily to play around with all manner of very different data sets to look for trends, patterns, insights, outliers etc. Impossible to tell what I'm looking for as it's exploratory, so can't be automated. I wouldn't call it bollocks.

OK, I consider myself educated in that people get paid to play around with pivot tables and that somehow benefits some organisations. I am serious not being sarcastic - this is news to me.

Neededanewuserhandle · 15/03/2023 08:16

Oh, and I know what an accrual is (and a Payroll journal) and I have never worked in finance.

Merryoldgoat · 15/03/2023 08:24

Neededanewuserhandle · 15/03/2023 08:16

Oh, and I know what an accrual is (and a Payroll journal) and I have never worked in finance.

I have come across many ‘non accountants’ with more financial knowledge that supposedly trained accountants.

I specifically ask recruiters for experience over quals, especially for a job where I’m only paying around £30k.

I’d rather have a person who understands the basics (like accruals and journals) and teach the other stuff than a qualified person who learned to test but has no idea of how their learning works in real life.

FlemCandango · 15/03/2023 08:28

I have been involved in recruitment over the last 12 months taking on 10 members of staff. I was doing the role I was recruiting for 2 days a week for much of the time. Testing was essential as knowledge is a big part of the role and CVs can be misleading. The test was based on a typical task which mirrored what you could expect if you were doing the job so it offered insight to us and the applicant.

I don't think a CV and cover letter is enough, the area I work in is not well paid but really socially valuable and very dependent on funding which expects high standards. So we need the right people. I also think the impact of recruitment is huge as training new people is time consuming, sifting, testing and interviewing is time consuming. We have to go through the process again in the next few weeks and it is exhausting thinking about it

I would rather do a relevant test that helps identify if the job is right for me and I am right for the job before I take a new job. Saves time in the long term.

Badbadbunny · 15/03/2023 08:28

@Merryoldgoat

A fully qualified candidate I recently interviewed couldn’t prepare a payroll journal which blew my mind but it’s why I have to test.

Yep, I've had that too, when I've been recruiting accountants. In my early days, I genuinely expected an accountancy graduate to be able to do simple book-keeping, but quickly found you can't assume that. My son recently did a couple of accounting modules as part of his financial maths degree so I looked at his course lecture notes and can now see why - double entry seems to be taught only as a concept with no practical element, so in theory they may know a bit about it, but in reality, they're studying the "product", i.e. the financial statements, i.e. ratios, margins, etc., rather than the "process" of how to prepare them! In the end, I stopped prioritising accounting graduates over others as they still needed the same level/amount of in house training and experience to be able to actually do the job of accounts preparation, so no benefit in an accounting graduate! (In fact, we also took A level school-leavers at age 18 who could do the same job, same training, etc., with A level Maths, and go onto the chartered qualification studies/exams, etc, so no benefit in a graduate at all).

But, yes, even with recruiting experienced/qualified accountants, I had to do some hard/searching questions in the interview as to just what they could and couldn't do. The thing is, especially for those who've worked only in one or two organisations, they have very little breath of experience. So it's quite possible that someone has never had to do a payroll journal, or a VAT return, etc., as others in the firm would have that task. I did tend to prefer people who'd worked in accountancy practices, who'd have a much broader experience as they'd be working on dozens/hundreds of different clients, experiencing different systems, picking up from client's book-keeping at various stages and progressing with it, etc. I would certainly have prioritised a candidate with, say, 10 years' experience in an accounting practice, over a graduate with just a couple of years post qualifying experience or someone with 20 years experience but only in one role in a single firm.

But having said all that, I never went down the route of making the application process hard. I've always been happy with covering letter and CV. In my latter years of recruitment, I just prepared my own "competency tests" which I asked candidates to do immediately before/after the interview and took about 30 minutes. They were basically either a simple accounts or a simple tax return (depending on job applied for) with numerous mistakes built in, at different levels, some easy/obvious which I'd expect any competent applicant to identify, some less obvious ones but still should be apparent to someone claiming they have experience, and a few devilishly hard to spot ones which would only be spotted by someone with in-depth knowledge/experience. I didn't have a pass mark, I just wanted to gauge how well they'd done in the "test" to compare with the CV and what they said in their interview. To be honest, that simple competence test was far more valuable as it wasn't something they could lie about nor blag. So, I think some level of "testing" beyond covering letters and CV is necessary, but not to the extents that recruiters have gone which is way over the top, especially with stupid online "games" that only seem to test persistence/perseverance etc like stopping a moving object on a specific location that just take time - just because a recruiter can "tick a box" to put that kind of stupid game on the process, doesn't mean it's a good idea!

Badbadbunny · 15/03/2023 08:36

Merryoldgoat · 15/03/2023 08:24

I have come across many ‘non accountants’ with more financial knowledge that supposedly trained accountants.

I specifically ask recruiters for experience over quals, especially for a job where I’m only paying around £30k.

I’d rather have a person who understands the basics (like accruals and journals) and teach the other stuff than a qualified person who learned to test but has no idea of how their learning works in real life.

That's my point about the "formal" educational training as opposed to practical real life experience, and why I don't prioritise accountancy trainees with an accounting degree over, say, someone with, say, a Music or History degree.

In one of my first jobs before I qualified, the firm took on a new qualified chartered accountancy from Deloittes (a top 5 firm), and one of the first jobs he was given was your typical "paper bag" job which was a pub. He literally hadn't a clue - couldn't comprehend that there wasn't a nominal ledger for him to "tick" and was pretty surprised when we told him he had to do it himself from the bank statements, cheque book stubs, pile of crumpled invoices, etc., as he'd never done the "basics" before. Turned out he'd only worked in audit spending his years "ticking" nominal ledgers etc for large firms who had their own in-house accountants, so he was always handed a full "set of books" to work with.

In a profession like accountancy, experience and "doing it" is far more valuable than the formal educational training/qualifications except at the very top levels, so the vast majority of accountants need the "hands on" basics, not theory!

Merryoldgoat · 15/03/2023 08:41

@Badbadbunny

I wonder if you’re my old boss who took a chance in me 15 years ago and I learned exactly how to find good staff from her.

I do exactly the same. Cover letter, CV, short test which is very basic but tests fundamental skills required.

Merryoldgoat · 15/03/2023 08:44

@Badbadbunny

Our auditors have a large cohort of A-Level leavers who’ve gone straight to an accountancy apprenticeship with them rather than degree route and they would run rings around the KPMG and PWC auditors I had at my previous global company.

IAgreeWithHim · 15/03/2023 08:46

I have found this as well. I am job hunting and was looking at a job that did not advertise the salary. It asked for post grad qualifications in the field and required a CV and a handwritten cover letter. Then before the interview i was sent a list of questions about how i would handle any given situation (mix of professional quandries and supervisory / management quandaries). I answered all those and went to the interview. When i was asked 'do you have any questions for us?' i asked what the salary was- £21k.

I mean Fuck Right Off.

Starflecked · 15/03/2023 09:17

I'd always assume if an advert doesn't list the salary then its because its below market rate or just generally really crap for the level of the job. We have only advertised jobs a few times as our business is small and our (amazing) staff don't tend to leave often; but would always be transparent about pay range and everything else. Personally found CV and interview sufficient to figure out if someone was suitable, and it's a very technical job.

L1ttledrummergirl · 15/03/2023 09:32

I'm quite happy to do situational tests as part of an interview. They are checking my competency and I get a feel for the job. I'm crap at interviews as I get stupidly nervous so the tests work for me. I love like chatting bto the current staff to get a feel for the place.

I would think they've gone mad if they had me pop balloons. I do carry a sewing kit though so they would be easy to pop with a pin.

It's the fill in this form which wants the information on your c.v, with the c.v and these questions which are answered by what's on your c.v that I ignore.

IAgreeWithHim · 15/03/2023 09:39

Yes i do not mind doing tests if it is releavnt (popping balloons sounds barking to me). It was more the requirement for post grad qualifications plus pages of questions for a salary that was definitely under market rates (well under the mean UK salary) and approx £19k under what I would start to consider reasonable!

lieselotte · 15/03/2023 12:34

I used to recruit for the customer service/retail side of opticians and basically you want someone personable, who speaks English, good personal hygiene who won’t steal money from the till. The rest you can train

Indeed.

And despite all this hoop-jumping, so many people working in customer facing roles have a poor command of English. Surely, in the UK, fluent(ish) knowledge of the dominant language is a, if not the, key requisite for a job where you have to deal with people?

JuliesBicycle · 15/03/2023 12:36

DH applied for customer side of opticians but failed the very extensive IT online test which had to be completed within a certain time. He wasn't quite quick enough.

Thebadfight · 15/03/2023 13:02

I’ve found it’s not much easier when applying for jobs internally. I am trying to leave current job due to my workload being doubled and have been offered new job in the same organisation. This involved two interviews where I was grilled relentlessly and had to do a time pressurised test. I checked working hours and working flexibility at interview and they said home based with 1 day in the office.

Only now they have offered it to me they want someone in the office fulltime with frequent travel to other locations requiring an hours drive with no parking at the end of it. Also been told I have to train a senior colleague who has just joined. So that would be me, starting a new job at a more junior level training a senior colleague. All for 22k a year.

I am now seriously thinking about withdrawing my job acceptance. They keep asking for my passport and other official documents which I provided 3 years ago when I joined the organisation but they are adamant they need to check. I am an internal candidate FGS!

Yellowdays · 16/03/2023 12:46

@nancy75 that's ridiculous, isn't it.

Tabitha005 · 16/03/2023 20:53

Merryoldgoat · 14/03/2023 22:17

@Tabitha005

How though? How can they even function in the role?

Or is it more supervisory/strategic and they expect their team to do the donkey work?

I mean, it doesn’t surprise me - I got a job as an accountant before any quals because I passed the tests several qualified accountants couldn’t.

A fully qualified candidate I recently interviewed couldn’t prepare a payroll journal which blew my mind but it’s why I have to test.

@Merryoldgoat It's a case of a 'bookkeeper' having joined a very small company that's grown exponentially in the past 18 months. I mean, my boss can't even really be described as a particularly competent 'bookkeeper' as they appear not to have even rudimentary knowledge of double entry or good practice - eg: they fail to pay suppliers in line with credit terms, leading to business functions being without vital services and when they finally do pay suppliers, they frequently pay some invoices twice. They also allocate customer payments with no reference to what invoices the customer is actually paying, write-off overdue amounts with no due diligence, are forever closing off the month without having entered all of the purchase invoices, which they then shunt into the following month, apparently unaware (or not caring) that means costs aren't being accounted for in the period in which they've occurred.

Thankfully, the board has now appointed a CFO and a management accountant.... both of whom are being kept busy unpicking the past few years of balls ups and shocking inability to perform even the most basic of accounting functions.

I think, overall, the management of the business, being even less clueless when it came to the finance and accounting function, just let my boss get on with it and hoped for the best - so they've also got to shoulder responsibility for some of the resultant mess.

I've only been with the business for a few months, but the terrible state of the accounting function was apparent to me (a mere finance assistant) pretty much from day one.

latetothefisting · 16/03/2023 21:38

ifoundthebread · 14/03/2023 19:26

I read an advert a few days ago for an office assistant -Document scanner. Temp role for approximately 6 weeks until work complete, duties include removing staples from documents and check scan quality. Essential qualification needed A-level in business or administration. Thought it would be the ideal job to fill a gap but im not qualified enough to use a scanner 🙄 job market is ridiculous.

Sounds like someone in the office has a child whose been pencilled in for the job but they technically have to advertise it so they've made it oddly specific to the

I've seen a lot of those too, where one of the essential/desirable criteria is "experience using x system which is only used in this specific job"....so basically you want to hire internally then!

My other pet hate is "please address how you meet these 25 skills/competencies/criteria.....within a 200 word limit."