Something is very wrong with schools

[GothicNight]

This thread might be a bit vague and it’s very influenced by personal experience so bare with me. For context I live in Florida.

But I feel like something is really wrong with children’s schools and we’ve been doing them for so long we’ve just accepted it.

But I can’t shake the feeling that we really need to radically change the way that children are educated.

I feel this way because my niece was recently harassed to the point of hospitalization. The teacher just ignored it because she was overwhelmed. It was a class of 45 people. What was she supposed to do?

And yes where we live the class size isn’t supposed to exceed 40 which is still too much in my opinion but several children where apparently without a school in their district so they took them in anyways.

My niece just keeps repeating that she’s broken and something is wrong with her and that’s why all the kids hate her and that’s why she needs to die because she can’t be fixed. We tried to tell her nothing is wrong with her but then she blatantly told us nothing an adult says will persuade her. Adults just tell her what they think she needs to hear.

But I think my experience is very deeply coloured because I had a similar experience. I used to be ostracized horribly and I thought something was wrong with me too. I remember very clearly thinking that if so many kids hated me this much and wanted me to feel this bad then I must be an incredibly fucked up irredeemable person and my existence is meaningless because I’m a burden on everyone around me. But the teachers and adults would insist this wasn’t true but then do nothing to help me. I remember feeling like my niece.

Like which is it? Are we irredeemably horrible people or is there nothing wrong with us? Well my niece has got 44 people in her class that seem to agree she’s all wrong. And maybe what five adults telling her that’s not true. Why wouldn’t she believe something is wrong with her?

Why do we let this happen with our schools and our children? Why do we allow teachers to be severely out numbered like this and create an environment where kids so easily fall through the cracks?

I hate the way we educate our children and just accept that this is our normal. I’m angry.

Perhaps if we can’t fund schools properly anymore to prevent this very situation maybe we should start thinking outside of the box as this situation is no longer sustainable in my opinion!

45 is huge, is that normal in the US? In the UK its max 30, sometimes a little over but I agree how can the teacher be on top of anything with 45.

My kids are at primary in the UK, decent state schools and they are happy and enjoy school.

For context I live in Florida.

Say no more. Florida is considered demented even by US standards.

My kids went through the UK school system and although there was bullying, they were in schools which dealt with it very effectively.

Florida is batshit crazyland even by US standards.

My children's schools have all been by and large excellent at dealing with well being and bullying issues.

45 is a ridiculous number of children for one class, I agree. But I haven't come across that in the uk.

I know more than one teacher who's had to teach a class of more than 40 (as standard, not a one-off due to staff absence or anything). It's not common here but also not unheard of.

My largest class is Yr 9 (35), my GCSE classes are 33, my smallest is A-level at 15.

This has been typical for last 15 years I would say.

I’m sorry your niece is having an awful time. I would like to think that I am aware of issues within my large classes.

The biggest class I have had was a class of 38 year 4s-it was awful! I’d say the optimum class size is about 20/24.

The problems in English schools currently are the lack of funding, lack of support for SEN pupils, squeezed curriculum and pointless testing, all of which suck any joy out of education and mean children increasingly just don’t want to be there. If we had time to consolidate learning and explore subjects creatively, rather than being forced to race through content just so that it’s been ‘covered’ for the next test/assessment, then it would be enjoyable for everyone.

The government want schools to 'do' mental health but as an added extra-as a bolt on-to sort out all the mental heath issues, but that's all back to front. Sort the curriculum, funding, staffing and high-stakes testing out, then I bet mental heath will improve. Oh, and reform Ofsted and maybe you’ll have some qualified teachers who want to stay in teaching, rather that attempting to bribe overseas teachers with £10k to come and plug gaps! The system is very broken.

From my experience it's not about class sizes - it's about the sort of students in them.

You need to pay higher taxes and fund schools properly.

This. I was bullied in school in the UK in the 90s. Even those who didn't actively bully me essentially ostracised me. School did bugger all.

More funding is needed. It's impossible to meet the needs of all of the children. In the UK most classes I've had and my dc have been in over the last ten years have been over 30. Imagine how long it takes me at the end of breaktime to just tie everyone's shoe laces...

Obviously there's nothing wrong with either of you.

Teens/kids often go with the pack rules. So if the top dogs decide to bully you the rest follow suit to avoid becoming a victim themselves.

The reason they chose you could be anything - you look like someone else they don't like, you're poor, you're rich, you're big, you're small, you're autistic, you're quiet, you're shy etc.

Also this is generally a UK website so I'm not sure we can comment on class sizes or schools, but the US is known to have rather horrendous public school funding.

Yeah 45 is very huge and not normal in the US, even 40.

Seems to be an exception where they are trying to accommodate extra children and hopefully they should be working to resolve it quickly e.g. our neighborhood in Chicago grew very quickly and be and popular with families and the local school started to struggle with numbers so they had to eliminate the gifted program which allowed students from other neighborhoods to test into the school to prioritize neighborhood kids and also built a second building which significantly improved the situation so hopefully it’s something that will be resolved soon rather than the status quo.

As a child in the late '60's I was in a class of 44. We had a ridiculous amount of holding exercises as the teacher dealt with different groups. Not unusual at the time. In the late '90's as a primary school teacher I taught a class of 36 with no TA... It was VERY hard work, and involved working on prep every evening and about one day each weekend. In 2000 I moved abroad and taught in an international school. My classes varied between 16 and 20 and I even had at least one period each day of prep and assessment time. Now retired and moved back to UK. I'm still below UK retirement age but would I consider going back into teaching in the UK? NO, NO and NO again. I loved my job abroad because I had the time to consider each child's individual needs. I don't see how that can be possible here.

Grew up in UK.

You're right. It's not possible. I feel like I'm failing every day. Last week I arrived in my classroom after half term with a bag of resources that I'd bought for my class. Pritt sticks, stickers, cups for those who don't have water bottles etc. I was greeted by a freezing cold classroom as the heating had broken over the holiday and the prospect of teaching without my carefully planned resources as we can't afford toner for the copier until the end of the financial year.

We live in New Jersey and my son is in a class of 21 which we're very happy with. Extortionate property taxes to pay for it though...we've found that there's lots of emphasis on kindness and thinking for yourself. My son is only 12 though so it may change.

My taxes are actually higher in the US than it would be in the UK. People tend to only look at US Federal taxes and conclude taxes are higher in UK but that’s not true.

In the UK you have income tax and NI payments while in the US you have federal taxes, state taxes, Medicare and social security deductions.

You also have property taxes in the US which is significantly higher than council tax in the UK.

Overall I believe taxes are higher for middle class earners in the US compared to the UK, lower income earners pay less tax than the UK.

Also schools are primarily funded by property taxes with additional funding from the state and federal government so while some school districts have poor funding, most school districts in the US have higher funding per student than the UK especially the larger school districts that educate majority of the children.

Englands funding only recently increased from about £5k to about £7k per student. It’s been underfunded for a long time.

With regard to your niece, when she says she feels she's broken or says awful things about herself you could say something like 'I understand why you feel that way, it makes sense because yong people feel that way when they've been treated the way you were. I can see how badly you were treated and how much that has hurt you.' You can tell her that's not the way you see her and the children who harmed her were wrong to do so - their behaviour isn't about her but s reflection on them. It would probably help to share your story too, and just validate her feelings but remind her that you see her as an awesome person, without expecting her to agree with you. Adults who love a child can make a huge difference to recovery from trauma. If you can spend time with her and take interest in her this will go along way to restoring her self-esteem.

Agree that education institutions are broken - not children.

I'm sorry OP, this must be incredibly hard on your family, and triggering for you.

Your class sizes are huge, and it's obv not OK for the school to ignore the bullying but in terms of numbers, how many teachers would you have in that class? What sort of ratio? In the UK there'd a massive recruitment issue, you simply couldn't d oa ratio of say 1 to 10 in every class in a school of several thousand

If your academic school will probably be okay
If your face fits school will probably be okay
If you have plenty of support for your SEN you'll probably be okay.

If you are not academic you'll probably find school won't be okay
If your face doesn't fit and you're not in with the 'trendies' you probably won't be okay
If your SEN is / are not supported then school probably won't be okay.
If you are Neurodivergent but no one's picked that up, you probably won't be okay.
If your home life is chaotic and or neglectful you probably won't be okay.

grammar schools are selective so attract the most able kids as do selective private schools. Non selective private schools, have, I believe a very thorough vetting process, and its much easier for them to oust a disruptive pupil (don't know for sure just going on what my teacher friends have said)

Obviously in all institutions bullying is going to be an issue, how it is dealt with, is hugely important.

Both my dc go to a bog standard state school. Disruption is a constant PITA and all science experiments have now been banned, it's a case of 'watch' the teacher do it only. DT has also moved over to watch the teacher too, as kids where pissing around with tools which could do serious harm. (Both dd and ds have had to miss lunch breaks to catch up work, due to other kids pissing around, and the teacher not being able to get the lesson finished),
Bottom line is this: you can't shoe horn children on to one narrow pathway for 12 years, it simply doesn't and won't work.
But my guess is most politicians kids go to either private or grammar schools, and therefore this is something which is way down the list of priorities. It wouldn't be that difficult to sort out, and i'm not even sure it would cost a ton of money. But we do need better policy makers and those policy makers need to listen to the teachers. Because they are the ones who know best.

Me too and it was a relatively small class as well.

It certainly isn't a max of 30. Most classrooms have space for 32 and that is common. Staffing shortages due to absence and recruitment problems mean that some subjects at my school have sets of 40 + in core subjects as well.

This is why so many children are homeschooled especially in the US.

Yes - the worst bullying I experienced was at the smallest school I went to. It seemed to be less to do with class sizes and more to do with the sort of people who went there, the reasons why they would bully, or the teachers not caring or knowing what to do. There is something wrong with a system that allows this kind of thing to happen and it isn't just about class sizes.