Toxic masculinity - dad and brother

[JudesBiggestFan]

I sort of ended up losing my temper yesterday and wanted opinions. My dad and brother went to watch a local football match with my two oldest sons (14 and 11).
My eldest had played cricket in the morning and had taken a ball to the hand...was very swollen but had movement so assumed not broken.
I went to pick him up and just said 'how's your hand doing.'
My brother then said 'oh what a girl, it was just a minor injury he'll be fine, he just needs to man up.'
I said, I'm not a fan of this whole 'man up approach, he's got two football matches tmrw and he's in goal, I'm just checking he'll be ok to play.'
At which point my dad got involved and said oh for god's sake, he just needs to get on with it, man up!
In this whole time my son hadn't even answered the bloody question so it was all a bit ridiculous.
But just absolutely typical of the way they behave around both my boys around sports...telling them not to be girls if they get fouled, winding them up if they let a goal in/miss a goal, teasing them relentlessly if they lose a match.
So basically I lost my shit yesterday and said, quit it with the toxic masculinity, it's 2023, if you can't be nice, just don't say anything! Back story is my dad was exactly the same with my brother and rather than spurring him on to great success he's chronically under achieved and has depression and a drink problem (which of course, no one acknowledges cos it's not manly to talk about your feelings). I can't say the two things are directly related, but a childhood of relentless criticism didn't help. I got the same of course but I'm academic, not sporty, plus I am probably more boldly by nature so I e argued with his more than my brother.
So I suppose my AIBU is am I unreasonable to challenge this language? It causes real tension when I do and I know when I go they're calling me over-sensitive, but I just don't want my boys absorbing that narrative. The odd time we all say things of course, but it's like bullying under the guise of banter. Or is this normal?! My husband is the gentlest, least sporty guy in the world so he never says shut like that...just enjoys supporting them!

Excuse typos...should say bolshy not boldly and shit not shut!

YANBU for challenging them at all. Sadly they will probably not acknowledge it or change though.

I think you’re right to challenge them. I would probably try to stop it becoming an argument but calmly correct them whenever they say something you don’t agree with. I don’t think it’s up to you to appease them. The whole “don’t be a girl’ and ‘man up’ narrative is really outdated and rude.

YANBU. I would speak to your DH and your DM about this and ask them to back you up next time they start.
If asking them nicely doesn't work then I would think about limiting the time your DS spends with them, and telling them why.

I wouldn’t let them take out my boys unsupervised again. They don’t get to talk to your children like this.

You're not being unreasonable at all.

Not letting them take out your 11 and 14 y.o. would be a gross overreaction, however. Boys this age will hear plenty of much more toxic masculinity than this, though. You need to confront it, not pretend it doesn't happen.

I found in similar situations in my family the only thing that actually worked was turning it round onto them every time so it's unpleasant for them and they learn not to do it. It's possible they do it partly because they enjoy getting you riled up while struggling to remain polite. I think you need to stop being nice about it, think whatyou want to say then read them the riot act. Calmly but firmly. Don't ask questions (they only invite answers ) tell them it's stops or theyll be seeing a lot less of your DSs. Hopefully it'll wake Grandad up a bit.
In the meantime when he says like a girl Id reply 'Like a girl? Id like to see you pushing a baby out - you'd never cope - you'd be a snivelling wreck.' In a suitably scathing tone.

I'd imagine the damage has already been done to your boys,if they've been around this since birth.

Until Men stop all this shit nothing will change....for Men.

I'd personally think twice about your boys being around them,without you being present.

I’d reframe this.

At 11 and 14 your boys will be hitting the teenage years already. Even though it is 2023 many/most teenage boys still go through the porn and male toxic banter phase. I guess it’s all that testosterone surging through their bodies.

By identifying and talking to them about the shit your dad and brother say, it means you have the opportunity to forewarn them about going down this path of disrespecting women .

Pick up on every sexist comment they make. State your case but don’t get angry. Your boys will get the message and you need to model the non aggressive way of dealing with it.

Mind you showing how it riles you now and then won’t do any harm either.

YANBU. And to be honest if they continued I would be stepping back from letting the kids spend time with them

YANBU

I think I would say something scathing like 'wind your neck in you weird old dinosaur' you need a quick put down that will make him feel silly and then he'll stop doing it, or he'll overreact and get aggressive which will also make him look silly.
Essentially they are mocking women to your face when they do this, always challenge it but always stay calm, they like it when you get stressed and lose your temper it makes them feel superior.

If my dad had started to tell me how to discipline my children I would have said, 'oi I'm the boss not you ...back off grandad'
.... But then my dad would never say that to me because he knows that's what he'd get in response.
You've been letting them get away with taking the piss out of you for too long, stand your ground from now on.

I wouldn't want men like your father and brother around around my children, full stop. It's men like them that perpetuate all of this toxic bullshit. It's no wonder at all your brother is an alcoholic.

Kick the sexists out of the car would have been an appropriate response at the time IMO

Think I'd have said women are not wimps they birth bigger than a football and all you lot do is kick them then roll around shouting how you're hurt.

Not only are YNBU, I would be cutting out unsupervised time with them if the attitude, the toxic masculinity crap and the negative comparisons to girls, etc doesn't stop. Misogyny is at the root of your dad's behaviour, and I wouldn't be standing for it.

How do your sons react when they hear comments like this?

@dapsnotplimsolls they don't say anything really, just smile awkwardly. My dad and brother are overpowering. Its the power imbalance that annoys me most - if they cry they're mocked, if they tell them to shut up, they're cheeky - so they just say nothing. Then my dad complains they're too reserved! I feel constantly that I'm correcting him or defending them...why can't they just be nice? It's partly generational, partly working class norms, partly just making themselves feel like big men at the expense of others. And the mad thing is, I know they genuinely love them...in some weird way thy think they're helping them by toughening them up! My mom says nothing ever...but she never did when we were kids either...she can't bear the confrontation. I always swore I'd never do the same.

I wouldn’t want my young sons unsupervised around this bullying. I would probably bring it up as a conversation over Sunday lunch, with all parties present, saying that my values were that gender bullying isn’t ok and please don’t do it around me and my children.

The lived experience of being a man seems to lead some men to think certain kinds of mental resilience are not just needed, but vital in their sons and grandsons at almost any cost.

Perhaps if your father and brother were a bit smarter and more experienced in life, they would realise that you know better than anyone what men are and think and feel and experience growing up and what masculinity is and should be. The invisible hand of the patriarchy has done such a tragic number on them instilling its values and shaping their attitudes growing up, it's a mystery to me how this happens but please do try to educate them.

As for DS, I wouldn't worry too much about him, you are the one who will spend time with him for his childhood, give him your values, shape his attitudes and no amount of pound shop stoicism here and there is going to spoil that.

OP, they are both toxic.

Your brother is clearly hugely damaged.

Why on earth are your children around them?

Do you really imagine exposing your children to their toxic bullying under the guise of family time is anything other than you condoning it, and therefore it is really confusing for your children?

Your father and brothers behaviour is neither acceptable nor normal IMO.

I have two sons that played lots of sports and I have never witnessed such behaviour.

Frankly I would imagine if a parent spoke like that around children, they would be pulled aside by coaches or shunned by other parents.

I am not suggesting that you cut your family off, but there is no way they should have unsupervised access to your children.

It looks like they see it as 'their job' to make your sons 'manly', particularly as they probably think their father isn't 'manly' enough. I suggest you keep calling it out.