Page 15 | Nightclub took DDs epipens

anaphyl4xis · 2023-03-04T08:56:47+00:00

My DD - 18 and a 1st year uni student - went to a nightclub last night and they refused to let her keep her epipens on her. They said if she needed them She had to go to the medical room. She was with a group of friends and had all paid to get in and the venue also refused to refund if they decided not to go in. AIBU to be absolutely livid and to follow this up with the company. For context my daughter has a life threatening allergy to nuts - but not peanuts.

MMUmum · 05/03/2023 18:23

Just as a heads up, I have just had an appt with a Consultant Immunologist, and she said the most important thing to remember when using an Epipen is to get the patients head low, lie back with your feet raised up until you start to recover, it might just save your life. As a retired Nurse I had never come across this advice before. And yes I think the club were very wrong to take the pens away

T1Dmama · 05/03/2023 18:36

anaphyl4xis · 04/03/2023 10:11

Thank you 😊

Show quote history

People who don’t have kids or their kids haven’t reached 18 yet…. Apparently our kids hit 18 and suddenly know everything about the world and how to do things they’ve never done before.. amazing hey!
My daughter is only 12, but I know at 18 I’ll still be fighting for her rights either with her or on her behalf.
I do wish people who are completely ignorant to the situation wouldn’t comment. I know the trolls will say ‘I have a right to speak my opinion’… they seem to forget that they also have the right to remain silent!

Saschka · 05/03/2023 18:46

Targetted · 04/03/2023 11:36

Yes I did.

Obviously, as I have also already said, people who need them must have their epipens. There needs to be away of protecting people (women) from attack too.

Show quote history

No, you posted a link to a story about a woman who had been out drinking all day and keeled over, and decided she must have been spiked with an Epipen despite not feeling any injection happen, and not seeing any device.

Just as likely she was drunk, or had something slipped in her drink. If it WAS an injected drug, there is absolutely no evidence somebody had managed to adapt an Epipen to administer it.

Rosscameasdoody · 05/03/2023 18:48

bellabasset · 05/03/2023 08:43

I'm shocked that your dd's epi pens were taken away from her. Perhaps the chemists could label the plastic pen holder. Absolutely I would contact the club in your position as would my grandmother. My mum wouldn't like 'to make a fuss'. But your dd will learn how to query issues by seeing how you make a positive criticism of the club. Also encourage your dd to write to both her MP, University authorities, and NHS. We often have rubber wrist bands these days and your dd's condition is one that calls for something like this.

Chemists do label the plastic pen holder. There is a label with the name of the drug, the name of the patient, the date and the issuing pharmacy. All the bouncers had to do was look, and understand.

Mandyjack · 05/03/2023 18:49

I'd be complaining if it was my daughter and she has a life threatening allergy. If she had a reaction would she even have time to get to a medical room?
There have been a spate of spiking with needles so that might be why they've done it. Does she carry a medical card?

Rosscameasdoody · 05/03/2023 18:50

Dobbyismyabsolutefav · 04/03/2023 15:27

I'm with @1Wanda1 and @GeekyThings My DD is at uni 200+ miles away and whilst she can deal with the majority of adult issues some she would need some guidance on and this would be one.

I would help your DD complain to the club directly and ask for them to clarify their policy. Then I would speak to the council.

My DD's housemate has an epi pen and he doesn't leave home without it and I'm assuming that includes clubs too.

Is this a uni town OP? Are you happy to share the city?

Their policy doesn’t mean a thing. If they’re removing essential medication from disabled people they’re breaking the law. It’s that simple.

Rosscameasdoody · 05/03/2023 18:51

Mandyjack · 05/03/2023 18:49

I'd be complaining if it was my daughter and she has a life threatening allergy. If she had a reaction would she even have time to get to a medical room?
There have been a spate of spiking with needles so that might be why they've done it. Does she carry a medical card?

She doesn’t need a medical card. What the club are doing is illegal.

Rosscameasdoody · 05/03/2023 18:54

notthishill · 04/03/2023 15:53

I am familiar with anaphylaxis and the laws surrounding allergies.

I am allergic to everything the OP's DD is and then some, and I'm an epipen carrier myself.

I would feel uncomfortable being separated from my epipen in a restaurant that put my allergens in every other dish, as the risk of exposure would be higher than usual. In a nightclub? The odds of me consuming an allergen would be low.

The odds of some tosser trying to spike a woman would however be quite high, so I'd be happy to stash my epipens in a secure location to help reduce the odds of some bloke smuggling in an injector with date rape drugs in it and claiming it was for an allergy.

Show quote history

You say you’re familiar with the laws surrounding allergies. Are you familiar with the laws surrounding the equal opportunities for disabled people ? It’s called the Equality Act 2010 and this club, and all other establishments who follow the same policy are breaking it. I don’t give a monkeys how low the risk is, someone with an allergy or a disability which requires them to carry essential medication in whatever form is entitled to the same enjoyment of entertainment facilities as everyone else. Insisting that they hand over their medication or they will be refused entry is against the law. Why are more people not enraged by this.

Rosscameasdoody · 05/03/2023 18:59

WiseUpJanetWeiss · 04/03/2023 13:43

Argh - quote fail. A pp referred to the Epipen as a medical device. It isn’t - it’s a medicine and I’m not at all sure that the paramedic (even assuming that they were a real paramedic) is legally permitted to take possession of a prescription only medicine under these circumstances.

Also, a genuine paramedic who knows what they are doing should easily be able to recognise a genuine un-tampered with adrenaline autoinjector. They surely aren’t concerned with mis-use of a real adrenaline autoinjector? And as others have said, autoinjectors aren’t stealthy.

Show quote history

An epipen is recognised as a medical device for injecting a measured dose or doses of epinephrine (adrenaline) by means of autoinjector technology.

Rosscameasdoody · 05/03/2023 19:06

minksss · 04/03/2023 14:12

@anaphyl4xis best option is to contact one of the leading anaphylaxis/allergy charities

They are likely to investigate if they think it's discriminatory or likely to put people at risk and means your daughter doesn't need to complain directly herself.

FWIW I'm outraged on your daughter's behalf - a club can't decide to change a policy designed to keep people safe just because there has been an increase in injectable spiking. They need to take proper guidance from people who know what they are doing.

From my uninformed perspective - surely if you're keeping a log of names (checked against IDs) of who's bringing injectables in, this should be enough of a deterrent against people using them nefariously.

To keep a log of people is potentially in breach of the equality act 2010. Epipens or other legitimate medicine delivery devices are easily recognisable - they’re single use, have a label which includes the patients’ name, name of the medicine and the date and issuing pharmacy. This is all that’s needed to identify someone who has a condition or disability which necessitates the medication. To refuse entry unless it’s handed over is breaking the law.

Rosscameasdoody · 05/03/2023 19:14

GrinAndVomit · 04/03/2023 13:07

I’m fine with people politely disagreeing.
You make a valid point. The difference would be that I’d only encourage my daughter to complain and make these points to her.
Being called a moron or implying we’re stupid or any other of the rude responses I’ve had on here because I’m mindful of an adult’s boundaries are just not on.

Show quote history

So being mindful of an adults’ boundaries, in your opinion, is more important than taking control of the situation and making sure that something is done about it before some unfortunate young person loses their life because of a moronic, ignorant and illegal door policy ? It’s all very well making the points to the daughter, but how do you make sure she is listened to when she takes it further ? The OP has already said the club authorities were less than helpful, so, given that the OP’s daughter is beyond the age where she can be banned from visiting these places, how else, other than getting personally involved and making sure something is done, can she keep her safe ? And where do you stand on the law ? Because this is clear disability discrimination. Do you not care about that either ?

niugboo · 05/03/2023 19:16

Appalling. And yes if she wont do it.

Rosscameasdoody · 05/03/2023 19:23

LondonJax · 04/03/2023 12:13

I would approach it (or get your daughter to approach it) as a 'what can we all do to ensure this doesn't happen again' first of all.

It could be that they'd be happy with a doctor's letter stating that she must have the item on her person at all times. They should be but who knows.

What's not acceptable is her handing them over. If the medical person, or whoever has the keys to the room, is elsewhere (looking after someone who's passed out or being sick or whatever) your DD is in danger. That's the point of an epi pen - immediate use as soon as the person starts feeling 'wrong'.

My boss has an epi pen. It's in her bag and is ready for use. She's shown us where she keeps and what to do if she needs it. She has a nut allergy. It'd be no use if it were in a room away from her.

So I'd start with the 'how can we work together to keep her safe' stance and ask them to ensure, if they say they will accept a doctor's letter, that EVERYONE working at the nightclub knows this.

There have been spates of people using syringes (not epi pens) to either freak people out by 'stabbing them' (debatable as to whether they're actually old enough to go clubbing if that's their idea of fun...) or actually injecting drinks or people. Whilst epi pens don't work the same, a blanket ban saves someone at the door having to make a decision. A doctor's note may be all that's needed to confirm the pen is what it is and why it's needed.

Just no. Go and look at the Equality Act 2010. The club are acting illegally. If they have a problem with people being jabbed it’s up to them to sort it out, and illegally removing essential medication from disabled people and refusing entry if they don’t hand it over, is discrimination. Epipens have the prescription information on the labels - absolutely no requirement for a doctors’ letter or anything else. They’re self explanatory.

Elly46 · 05/03/2023 19:51

My first thought was the time it would take to get to the pens and possibility of confusion that the the distance to go go get hold of them would cause. Yes there’s the risk of
spiking etc but surely also just as much of a risk to your
dd. Im
shocked they took them from her and had cheek to
argue re the entry fee

bakebeans · 05/03/2023 19:52

I think u really need to escalate this. You have every right to be concerned. Clearly this is people (no fault of their own) following orders from senior management who have lack of understanding of allergies and how quickly someone can go into anaphylaxis and die. Unless you have been in, witnessed or treated someone in this situation, people do not understand.

bakebeans · 05/03/2023 19:53

Further thought but doesn your daughter carry a medical if card when she goes out? I know it's not the cool to do but maybe have a chat given the recent situation?

LangClegsInSpace · 05/03/2023 20:07

YANBU OP. This is disability discrimination so bad that it could result in death.

I agree with the advice to contact an anaphylaxis org for help, to make an initial enquiry about policies, H&S etc. and to start a formal complaint from there.

Would DD be amenable to writing a statement of exactly what happened while it's fresh in her mind?

MadMadaMim · 05/03/2023 20:09

So sorry this happened to your DD - it must have been stressful and scary and really impacted her enjoyment of herb night out. My DD has an allergy to pineapple managed with antihistamines and that's scary enough!

The way the club managed your DDs requirements doesn't seem great, however I want to give another view

3 weeks ago I got a call in the ealy hours that DD had been needle spiked in a club. She's at uni 240 miles away. She had 3 needle marks in her thigh, police involved and uni welfare team (it was a uni student only club night). We didn't know how common this horror is before this happened. She had no idea anything had happened the next morning until her BF asked how she was feeling. Police were amazing and at no point tried to attribute to alcohol etc.

It was a very traumatic and scary event for everyone. Luckily, DD has amazing uni friends who, even though they'd been drinking, acted quickly and(sort of) competently. The police have obviously dealt with this many times and had processes in place, including taking statements at uni halls (DD was interviewed in her room with a friend present). The club have been so helpful with CCTV, and police and uni to try to identify the horrible fked up person who did this.

We had frank and honest discussions with club manager and police - this is, sadly, not uncommon (they chose their words carefully...) and becoming more common and incidents identified as club staff, police, victims and people with victims become more aware of symptoms (previously put down to having drunk too much or taking drugs).

The club has a policy of no medication inside - it's all taken, bagged and labelled. There are 'welfare staff' around the club with orange vis top and processes in place.

It's been a massive psychological mindfk. DD is an convinced 10s if not 100s of women are assaulted or raped every week using these drugs - she had no recollection whatsoever, lost 12 hours of her life. She she couldn't walk, was babbling, incoherent and was completely incapacitated. The favt that she couldn't remember any of that is what's freaking her out the most.

I'm not sure what the solution is to ensure everyone's safety but personally, if I'm honest, I'd be more comfortable knowing there are no syringes or needles in clubs and bars.

Danny8558 · 05/03/2023 20:14

It would be worth asking nicely for the reasons behind their policy, and whether they have actually assessed the relative risk of theirs v allowing Epipen holders to retain them. For example since time is of the essence in anaphylaxis can they confirm that they have tested how long it will take to access medication as part of the safety certificate they must hold.
Should they refuse to tell you you should approach your local licensing board with your concerns.
Under the provisions of the Equality Act 2010 it is not permissible to discriminate on the grounds of nine protected characteristics, one of which is disability.

Feraldogmum · 05/03/2023 20:19

I’d go further, I would report them to the police and the HSE.

Nimbostratus100 · 05/03/2023 20:26

I was trying to think of a "solution" and the best I can come up with is the club putting the pens in some sort of container that has an alarm on it, then returning them to your daughter, so if she needs them she opens the container, and the alarm goes off. ideally both audible, and electronic, direct to security

This means that no one can be using the cover of an epipen to secretly spike anyone, as getting it out will be clearly audible and alert security

And has the added advantage of alerting security, and people around her, that your daughter is having an anaphylactic shock

So if such containers exist, great! If not, we need to invent them!

Rainbowshit · 05/03/2023 20:31

Nimbostratus100 · 05/03/2023 20:26

I was trying to think of a "solution" and the best I can come up with is the club putting the pens in some sort of container that has an alarm on it, then returning them to your daughter, so if she needs them she opens the container, and the alarm goes off. ideally both audible, and electronic, direct to security

This means that no one can be using the cover of an epipen to secretly spike anyone, as getting it out will be clearly audible and alert security

And has the added advantage of alerting security, and people around her, that your daughter is having an anaphylactic shock

So if such containers exist, great! If not, we need to invent them!

No. We really really don't.

Rainbowshit · 05/03/2023 20:34

fatchilli123 · 05/03/2023 18:19

For all those people asking her to make her way to a medical room to retrieve her EpiPen to counteract anaphylaxis. You are not understanding how fast this can come on . How disoriented you can become . How weak you can be and once you go into shock you can explain or get help . You need the pen with you to use ASAP.
Last time I was bad I was lying on o the floor unable to hardly breath or move my system shut down with a minute. How long does it take to work out where a medical room is to get the EpiPen back and make yourself heard about nightclub noise to get it back.

Exactly. The worst thing you can do is to run or walk fast. In the event of anaphylaxis they need to be lying down.

Rainbowshit · 05/03/2023 20:35

MMUmum · 05/03/2023 18:23

Just as a heads up, I have just had an appt with a Consultant Immunologist, and she said the most important thing to remember when using an Epipen is to get the patients head low, lie back with your feet raised up until you start to recover, it might just save your life. As a retired Nurse I had never come across this advice before. And yes I think the club were very wrong to take the pens away

It's standard advice. My DC carry these allergy action plans which show in the event of anaphylaxis they should be laid down with their feet raised. bsaci2.sharepoint.com/Shared%20Documents/Forms/internet%20explorer.aspx?id=%2FShared%20Documents%2FSub%20Committees%2FStandards%20of%20Care%2FAdult%20Allergy%20action%20plan%2Fpaediatric%20plans%2Fnew%2Dedited%2FBSACIAllergyActionPlan2019EpiPen%2D1%201%2Epdf&parent=%2FShared%20Documents%2FSub%20Committees%2FStandards%20of%20Care%2FAdult%20Allergy%20action%20plan%2Fpaediatric%20plans%2Fnew%2Dedited&p=true&ga=1

Nimbostratus100 · 05/03/2023 20:36

Rainbowshit · 05/03/2023 20:31

No. We really really don't.

Show quote history

why not? The problem with epipens is they are so easily available, anyone could bring them into a night club and claim they are prescribed for them.