To wonder if Civil Service annual leave might be negotiable?

[bambamalam]

I'm thinking of applying for a civil service job. It's a level 7 specialist analytical role with a market supplement attached, which suggests that they've been struggling to recruit. The advert says it includes 25 days leave, rising to 30 after 5 years. I currently have 30 days leave (plus bank hols), so 25 would be a significant reduction. If it was a private company I might try to negotiate, but for the Civil Service would I be whistling in the wind?

@RedCarsGoFaster that is a slightly different situation, it's a bit like when you level transfer and you don't go down to your new department's salary if it's lower than what you had already, you wouldn't be expected to lose what you accrued. I have accrued 4 days leave from 4 years service as my department lets you accrue a day a year, but if I moved to a department that made you wait 5 years for 5 days I would not lose the 4 days.

That said I still think OP should negotiate (at job offer stage) because they can only say no, and you never know you might get a sneaky manager willing to informally gift you days...not condoning it but I've seen worse!

Yeah, like that's going to happen

All those going on about flexitime, you do realise you have to work the hours on other days to make up for it and it's there to get the work done, not top up your holiday allowance.

@BarbaraofSeville obviously, but it's fairly easy to build up time in the week without going into overload, with a shorter lunch break, slightly longer day (especially when WFH- the time I used to spend commuting!) or when travelling to another location on work time, the key is being able to then take the time off in bulk and a time that suits us. I barely notice the few additional hours in the week, but really feel the "extra" 1-2 weeks of leave.

I get 31 days now as been there years ....and can accrue two days flex a month ..... and have the option of buying up to two weeks holiday PA. So definitely worth asking as there will definitely be some way to make it similar or better time off than you have now probably 😆

Actual days holiday won't be negotiable, but as others have said look at other ways to get extra days off - unpaid leave, 0.95 working, TOIL.
DH also seems to get random extra days ontop - queens birthday (I guess Kings birthday now) plus other oddities.

As others have said it won’t hurt to ask but there won’t really be much negotiation.

The market supplement does show that you have a desirable specialism, but I’m aware of a department that does have the standard grade pay scales plus a supplement to retain specialists / particular roles.

You will still have bank holidays to add, plus as some have mentioned potential privilege days which can slightly differ between departments

I would expect you to get 25 days leave, plus bank holidays plus 1 privilege day as the sovereigns birthday.
The 25 rising to 30 over 5 years is likely to be one extra day per year

Historically the civil service had 2.5 privilege days which government removed, but the Queen pointed out that the sovereigns day was granted by the king rather than a government term of service.
I believe that there are one or two job types that still have 2.5 privilege days, but they are a rarity.

For me I have ‘lost’ 1.5 of the privilege days, but they are in the terms of my contract due to when I started so I instead have 31.5 days leave + BHs + 1 PD
(That means I get to choose when to use my 1.5 as leave rather than the set periods when they were privilege days)
If I take promotion again or transfer department then my contract will change and I’ll lose the 1.5 days

You of course have nothing to lose over asking for going straight to 30 days (unless you don’t accept the offer, saying you want 30 days or don’t join and they then say no)

The Civil Service aims to provide flexibility, so unless there’s a good reason to prevent it then you will be able to have flexi time, which doesn’t give you more days but does allow you to work longer each day to top up a bit or have early Fridays etc

Each flexi scheme has its rules so you can’t just make up 5 days and take a week off but will be able to accrue a day or two across to the next period

I did actually negotiate salary coming in as a 7, but it was a shortage area.

In my department you can buy up to 10 days leave- works out nicely from a tax perspective as well. 7s don't get flexi in my dept but we do have good flexible working practices and the leave purchase scheme.

It's not negotiable.

It's not always negotiable when you move between departments, as you join on the new departments terms and conditions but your continuing service counts. I lost 5 days moving between departments because terms and conditions (length of service) for 31 days was different in different departments. I fought it, and HR said no. Was worth the move though for the pay rise/promotion.

There's flexi time, you can accrue time and use that as a day off. Longer hours building it up. I save up 2 days, use 2 days flexi and 3 days annual leave for a week off, which can work nicely if you put the work in. Makes holiday leave last longer.

There are caveats with building time if you're working to a target/KPI. Say in a day you had to do 15 pieces of work, you couldn't just take longer/take your time and add an extra hour, they'd expect an extra hours worth of work.

We can actually sell our annual leave this year as we're going back down to 10 days carry forward after being allowed to carry forward 15 during Covid!

Not that I am selling any! 🙄

It's definitely not negotiable. My department allows up to 2 Flexi days per month and you can buy up to 5 days additional annual leave.

Not in the civil service. But as PPs have said there may be flexitime and the option to buy holiday. And it will be 25 days plus bank holidays.

Just an update having confirmed the policy on 25 to 30 days in 5 years
(Based on MoD civil service policy)

It is starting with 25 days leave, plus bank holidays, plus 1 privilege day for the sovereigns official birthday

Rising 1 extra day of annual leave per year to a total of 30 at the 5 year point

The annual leave year is from 1st May to 30th April.
There is a leave calculator to enable new starters and leavers to calculate the appropriate portion of leave for a part year
(Note that for a part year you get the bank holidays and privilege day if they fall into the period)

If a proportioned period resulted in a part day of leave then it is rounded up

The sovereigns privilege day is to be taken on either the Friday or Tuesday on either side of the spring bank holiday
(so if a person starts in June then they don’t get that years privilege day)

The extra day per year might get added on your anniversary rather than on the 1st of May, but as long as you work the full year it’s an extra day in your second year - this will be a technicality in the calculation if you leave before the 5 years have brought you up to 30 days

As the OP has 30 days + BHs and are facing 25 + 1PD + BHs it will take 4 years to get the same total, and a 5th year to have one extra on top
(There is of course less choice as to when to take the PD)

it's non negotiable - the T&Cs are pretty much the same for everyone and there isn't any wiggle room. However, you can build up flexi so can easily add another 5 days or more to your leave!

You'll get 10.5 bank holidays. That's the normal 8, plus 27th Dec, the King's birthday and Mournday Thursday. That plus 5 weeks leave is quite generous.

The standard working week is only 37 hours.

You can build up to 15 hours flex, so up to 2 days of flex.

YABU OP.

@TrickorTreacle it is very unusual for depts to still have 27th Dec, Maundy Thursday pm as separate privilege days for new starters. Most departments absorbed them into annual leave for existing staff and removed them for new starters around 2015/16. The Kings Birthday is still separate.

@Brazilianadventure an ALB I was in a couple of years ago still had the Christmas privilege days, it was a bit under the the radar though, we always knew we weren't supposed to mention to anyone in our parent department ha.

@kljk78 😂 that’s why I was surprised by @TrickorTreacle response

I was only there for a year and I had all of the days that I mentioned + 25 days AL. It was 8 years ago though, so probably just before the days got removed. I stand corrected :-)

My husband moved to the CS from the NHS and was allowed to negotiate. E.g. in the CS, you get an extra day a year up to 30. He’d been in the NHS for a year so they allowed him to have 26 days to reflect that he’d been in the NHS for a year. It was still a reduction from 27 days but it was a much preferable job in the CS so compromises had to be made 🤷‍♀️

They wouldn’t have done that anyway on an Agenda for Change contract. A new starter starts on the lowest banding of their salary.

@RainbowBrightside now you mention it there is a way of being able to use other public sector roles as part of your "continuous service" accrual, I vaguely remember when moving it coming up but as my public sector job previously had been spun out into a charity it wasn't applicable.

It would be very unusual in your role for it not to be flexi which means potentially another 18-24 days a year. I'm no longer a CS but when I was, apart from the 25 which is standard across the service afaik, plus the perks like the royal extra days and bank holidays, I also made 24 Flexi days a year.

It's not negotiable no.
New starters will not get Maunday Thursday or Christmas privilege day.
As for the King's birthday- check if this is still a thing. We've been told that the King will have to decide if we continue to get this and management are not sure if we get it this year.
As for flexi time this is in theory great. However you may find you are in a position where you are refused flexi leave by management due to "pressure of work" so built up a lot of hours and cannot take the leave

@Vanillaradio depends on the organisation, I was new and I got the additional privilege days, it was a quirk of our ALB.