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AIBU?

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Original poster

Company wants me to pay back holiday days.

562 replies

Mooshamoo · 28/02/2023 09:55

I started in a job in November 2022. We have an online annual leave system .
At the start of January 2023, 21 days on our online system became available to me for me to take.

I asked my manager could I take two weeks off at the start of the year. I took the last week of January and the first week of February off. This was approved by my manager. I took them. I was then moved to a new manager. Which was the way the company worked. New starters were with one manager. After two months you were changed to another manager

The company was pretty abusive and at the end of February I decided to leave.

I left. I then got an email from my second manager saying I had taken more annual leave days in the time I worked there, then I had accrued. And that I have to pay this annual leave money back. It is 550 euro. I'm in Ireland. This is a lot of money to me as i am now in between jobs.

Can they do this. My first manager who approved the annual leave days, never told me that I did not have enough annual leave days to take. She approved them. She never told me at any stage that if I left the company that I would have to pay these annual leave days back. If I had known that I wouldn't have taken them .

Can they do this to me now?

OP posts:
userxx · 28/02/2023 12:49

You've been overpaid. It needs to be paid back.

Original poster
Mooshamoo · 28/02/2023 12:52

BarbaraofSeville · 28/02/2023 12:47

^Once I receive a call, that call has to be logged and sent within a certain timeframe. We get back to back calls.

We have no admin time. There is no time to do what they want to us to do. The only possible way to do the tech work is to do it on my break.

If I don't get it down I will get into huge huge trouble for not doing it. As contractors won't have been sent out to the customers in time.

No one in my team is able to take a single break ever. We have all told the managers that we need administration time every day, that we need to be off calls for 15 minutes.. They won't give it to us^

Unless you're an emergency services despatcher, and your 'contractors being sent out to the customer' are actually fire/police/ambulance people, what's the rush? Even if you're taking an hour or two per working day for breaks and admin, it will only be a few minutes longer wait per customer so won't make any difference at all, outside emergency services.

Take your call, do your admin/tech work and don't answer another call until that's done.

If they want a certain standard of service (calls answered within X rings, contractors despatched within Y minutes) they need to provide appropriate staff members for this including allowance for admin/tech, breaks meeting legal requirements and preferably also to cover any staff shortages.

And it they don't do that, it's not your problem. It's theirs. If they asked you why you left tell them. Unreasonable workload and illegal working conditions.

You said "don't answer another call until that's done".

But thats not possible. We get inbound calls. The calls automatically connect. Eg I don't answer them with a click, the call goes straight through to me. We have to answer every call. They monitor us.
They can see our every move on an online system.

If I don't answer a call I will get an immediate message from a manager asking why I missed the call. The big boss also sent around an email saying if anyone doesn't answer a call this will be seen as work avoidance and your job will be terminated.

We get back to back calls . No time between calls to do anything. We are also not allowed to hang up on anyone, you will lose your job if you do that too.

OP posts:
Womencanlift · 28/02/2023 12:54

Did you not get sent a copy of the employee handbook or your contract sent to your personal email address before you started? That is usual practice in any job I have been in so you can read and agree to it before you star

If not could one of the people still employed not look on the system and send a photo of the relevant holiday entitlement policy to you?

I know it’s a shock but they have not done anything wrong. If you take holidays that have not yet been accrued (which is a normal practice in most companies) you would either owe them it directly or it would be deducted from your last pay cheque. On the basis that you didn’t work your notice you will not get a final pay so will need to pay it back directly

On the flip side of someone hasn’t taken the holiday accrued then that will be paid in a final salary

All completely correct and I have never had a conversation with a manager about accrued days when getting a holiday authorised

WaddleAway · 28/02/2023 12:54

It sounds like a really shitty place to work and like you’re better off out of there. That’s entirely separate to the holiday pay issue though.

Nomoreno · 28/02/2023 12:55

Yes they can do this. Usually they deduct it from your final salary pay though.

Brefugee · 28/02/2023 12:55

But if the level of workload given is so high , that it is not possible to take a break. That is the company's responsibility.

you are all adults. And i get that it is really really intimidating. But you are all at breaking point and considering leaving. So there really is no hinderance to not doing the admin, or doing the admin and not taking the next call. And then accepting that the consequences are someone shouting at you - at which point you say "don't shout at me, this is a workplace." and "I am doing the work per call that i am required to do: take the call, pass the info on, doing the admin".
And that is it. You need to have a bit of a backbone to do this, and it really isn't hard. But if 7 of you are doing it? easier. And if you get fired? well, you're quids in because then you get your union (you are in a union, right?) onto the unfair dismissal.

This is how we acquire rights. This is how we got weekends, 8 hour days, lunchbreaks, paid sick leave, paid holidays... People actually died to get these things, and these days? they are rolling right back. Because everyone is "breaking under the strain" and doing the bloody work and not letting it slide.

cstaff · 28/02/2023 12:55

Op they sound like an awful company to work for and while you do owe them the money you could maybe propose paying them €10 a month or whatever you can afford for the next number of months or alternatively ignore them and let them pursue you. It probably won't be worth their time.

The only time I had to pay back holidays it was only a couple of days and they let it go probably because I had been there for a couple of years.

WaddleAway · 28/02/2023 12:56

Nomoreno · 28/02/2023 12:55

Yes they can do this. Usually they deduct it from your final salary pay though.

They weren’t able to do this as the OP quit without notice on payday.

Yoyooo · 28/02/2023 12:59

@Mooshamoo what is your call status system called?

Do you need to change status to go into break, make a outbound call etc?

CraneBoysMysteries · 28/02/2023 13:00

OP it sounds like a shorty place to work and explaining the reasons why to other posters are really neither here nor there

Focus on pulling yourself back up again and getting yourself a new job. Brush this toxic place off and look ahead

And do work out if you own anything back from your salary if they paid until end of feb!

CraneBoysMysteries · 28/02/2023 13:00

Shitty not shortly!!

Crazycrazylady · 28/02/2023 13:00

Op.

I think it's clear you were chancing your arm here. Of course you have to pay them back?

TeachesOfPeaches · 28/02/2023 13:01

It would be great if you didn't have to pay it back as you could get a new job, take 25 days off paid, quit, then do it all again at another company!

PatientlyWaiting21 · 28/02/2023 13:02

Mooshamoo · 28/02/2023 09:55

I started in a job in November 2022. We have an online annual leave system .
At the start of January 2023, 21 days on our online system became available to me for me to take.

I asked my manager could I take two weeks off at the start of the year. I took the last week of January and the first week of February off. This was approved by my manager. I took them. I was then moved to a new manager. Which was the way the company worked. New starters were with one manager. After two months you were changed to another manager

The company was pretty abusive and at the end of February I decided to leave.

I left. I then got an email from my second manager saying I had taken more annual leave days in the time I worked there, then I had accrued. And that I have to pay this annual leave money back. It is 550 euro. I'm in Ireland. This is a lot of money to me as i am now in between jobs.

Can they do this. My first manager who approved the annual leave days, never told me that I did not have enough annual leave days to take. She approved them. She never told me at any stage that if I left the company that I would have to pay these annual leave days back. If I had known that I wouldn't have taken them .

Can they do this to me now?

@Mooshamoo didnt you sign a contract? If you did this is where this would be covered off / in the company handbook. If not and you didn’t sign anything then no they can’t force you to pay it back.

in answer to your other question you generally can take annual leave whenever you want, but if you leave without having earned more leave than you used you need to pay it back, just the same if you leave and accrued annual leave then they would pay you.

Frankola · 28/02/2023 13:03

Yes they can do this. In most contracts you are allocated an annual allowance. This works out at so many days a month that you "accrue".

It was possible for you to take the 2 weeks because it was available over your annual allowance, but when someone leaves the employer calculates how many holiday days you have earned pro rata. In some cases, some people owe money back for extra holiday taken. In other cases the employer owes the person money for holiday allowance they have accrued but not taken.

Many people keep track of this themselves if they're thinking of leaving so they don't end up owing holiday pay back to the employer.

You need to pay it back I'm afraid.

Fiddledediddledeedee · 28/02/2023 13:04

Mooshamoo · 28/02/2023 12:52

You said "don't answer another call until that's done".

But thats not possible. We get inbound calls. The calls automatically connect. Eg I don't answer them with a click, the call goes straight through to me. We have to answer every call. They monitor us.
They can see our every move on an online system.

If I don't answer a call I will get an immediate message from a manager asking why I missed the call. The big boss also sent around an email saying if anyone doesn't answer a call this will be seen as work avoidance and your job will be terminated.

We get back to back calls . No time between calls to do anything. We are also not allowed to hang up on anyone, you will lose your job if you do that too.

Show quote history

Just a thought in case you go back or to let your friend know that’s still there
Why don’t you do the admin whilst you’re on the call.

Is that possible ie “ hold on whilst I put that in the system “

In your contract it should say how long and when / time period , breaks can be.
As PPs have said, when it’s time for your break just take it.
If company complains you are the one in the right, they can’t dismiss you.

Original poster
Mooshamoo · 28/02/2023 13:04

BarbaraofSeville · 28/02/2023 12:47

^Once I receive a call, that call has to be logged and sent within a certain timeframe. We get back to back calls.

We have no admin time. There is no time to do what they want to us to do. The only possible way to do the tech work is to do it on my break.

If I don't get it down I will get into huge huge trouble for not doing it. As contractors won't have been sent out to the customers in time.

No one in my team is able to take a single break ever. We have all told the managers that we need administration time every day, that we need to be off calls for 15 minutes.. They won't give it to us^

Unless you're an emergency services despatcher, and your 'contractors being sent out to the customer' are actually fire/police/ambulance people, what's the rush? Even if you're taking an hour or two per working day for breaks and admin, it will only be a few minutes longer wait per customer so won't make any difference at all, outside emergency services.

Take your call, do your admin/tech work and don't answer another call until that's done.

If they want a certain standard of service (calls answered within X rings, contractors despatched within Y minutes) they need to provide appropriate staff members for this including allowance for admin/tech, breaks meeting legal requirements and preferably also to cover any staff shortages.

And it they don't do that, it's not your problem. It's theirs. If they asked you why you left tell them. Unreasonable workload and illegal working conditions.

You said "even if you're taking an hour a day to do admin".

Lucky you you've never worked in a call centre. there is no way we would get an hour to do admin..I requested 15 mins to do admin and I was told it wasn't possible..

We get back to back calls with 20 seconds between calls. 4 different tech online systems have to be updated on each call. You would still be doing the system work for the last call on the next call. Extremely detailed tech systems that have to be filled out correctly or we get shouted at by the quality team about the system work.

Back to back calls all day. And you have to take every call. If you are meant to finish at 5.30 and you receive a call at 5.27 you ahbe to answer that call. Even though the tech nature of the call means that you will then end up working to about 6.

I worked an unpaid half hour after my shift on so many days

OP posts:
FoxInSocksSatOnBlocks · 28/02/2023 13:05

Unless you asked to take a break and they actually said no, or you took one and were documented as disciplined for it, then no, they haven’t stopped you taking a break and haven’t acted illegally.

You have chosen not to take your legal entitlement based on how you think they will react if you do.

Either way, it’s neither here nor there.

You quit, without working your notice which is awful, and now have to suffer the consequences of both that and having to pay back your AL.

FoxInSocksSatOnBlocks · 28/02/2023 13:05

I worked an unpaid half hour after my shift on so many days

Again, your choice.

soleilblue · 28/02/2023 13:05

You don't work there so don't worry about breaks etc. But yes you owe them money

MooseAndSquirrelLoveFlannel · 28/02/2023 13:06

If you quit on 24th you will owe them for any days in Feb as well because the pay will be for all of Feb. So assuming its Mon-friday you owe them two days.

On your logic you worked 4 months and earned 21 days, so in a year you would earn 63 days annual leave if you can earn 21 days in 4 months. Surely you realise that's illogical..

Fiddledediddledeedee · 28/02/2023 13:08

shell probably owe them for more than two days as February is a short month but you’re not paid less because of that
Monthly salary based on 30.5 days. approx

Fiddledediddledeedee · 28/02/2023 13:09

Fiddledediddledeedee · 28/02/2023 13:08

shell probably owe them for more than two days as February is a short month but you’re not paid less because of that
Monthly salary based on 30.5 days. approx

That’s not working days obviously 🙃

Yoyooo · 28/02/2023 13:09

I've asked many questions about the breaks and they haven't really been answered. I have years of contact centre experience and there is no way you wouldn't be able to log out or change your status and take a break.
You just log out the same way you log out at night surely and take your break!?
I get it is busy and there is a lot to do, but IME you're expected to do the admin whilst on the call perhaps?
Have you tried, before your shift, explaining to your manager that you need your breaks and the best way to be able to do this?

Original poster
Mooshamoo · 28/02/2023 13:10

FoxInSocksSatOnBlocks · 28/02/2023 13:05

I worked an unpaid half hour after my shift on so many days

Again, your choice.

Are you serious . How on earth is that my choice. It is not my choice at all.

My shift finishes at 5.30pm. I am told by my boss that I have to answer any call that comes in at 5.28.pm I am told if I do not answer a call, I will be fired for this.

My shift ends at 5.30. i am told by my boss that I must answer a call at 5.28. Each call goes on for average 15 minutes. Plus it will take about 6 mins after this call to finish up the system work on it.

My shift finishes at 5.30 yet I am told by my boss that I must answer a 15 min call at 5. 28pm. So I must stay an unpaid half an hour later. And you're saying that it's my choice?

OP posts: