Any police officers or family lawyers around?

coodawoodashooda · 2023-02-27T18:02:51+00:00

How many pieces of evidence do you need to show a court proof of coercion and mental cruelty concerning children? And, as the other parent, would you have to instigate the prosecution, or would the police do that whether you wanted them to or not? Thanks in advance.

Needanewnamebeingwatched · 27/02/2023 18:06

Fear on two occasions and if there is evidence of that, then the police can prosecute, even without cooperation of the victim.

Original poster

coodawoodashooda · 27/02/2023 18:16

Thank you so much for replying. Does it have to be consistent with siblings? What would trigger the police to prosecute without the other parent's support? Would anecdotal evidence from a qualified support worker be sufficient?

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Original poster

coodawoodashooda · 27/02/2023 18:17

Needanewnamebeingwatched · 27/02/2023 18:06

Fear on two occasions and if there is evidence of that, then the police can prosecute, even without cooperation of the victim.

And how do I convince social work they should not have direct and unsupervised contact with the abusive parent?

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Chickenly · 27/02/2023 18:22

Neither you nor the police prosecute. The Crown Prosecution Service make that decision based on evidence supplied by the police.

It’s not about “pieces of evidence”. There needs to be enough evidence - whether that’s one piece or a million pieces depends on the exact details of the case.

Original poster

coodawoodashooda · 27/02/2023 18:41

I'm in Scotland. I can't prosecute him. I don't have the strength. The police said they don't do third party prosecution in Scotland and I'd have to instigate it. I discussed it with my family and we've been through enough. The kids are a separate case. Social work have seen it. They seem entirely uninterested. Want them back at their father's. Apparently he's said he won't do it again. The uncertainty is massively impacting on my kids behaviour.

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Original poster

coodawoodashooda · 27/02/2023 18:44

Chickenly · 27/02/2023 18:22

Neither you nor the police prosecute. The Crown Prosecution Service make that decision based on evidence supplied by the police.

It’s not about “pieces of evidence”. There needs to be enough evidence - whether that’s one piece or a million pieces depends on the exact details of the case.

How do I get it in front of the crown?

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Chickenly · 27/02/2023 19:15

coodawoodashooda · 27/02/2023 18:44

How do I get it in front of the crown?

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You report it to the police and if the police deem there to be a criminal offence based on the evidence they have, they make a CPS referral. It’s an objective assessment that the police make so, beyond reporting and co-operating, there’s not much you can do to ensure it meets the threshold.

ljhals · 27/02/2023 19:15

I'm not sure how it works exactly in Scotland, but I went through a solicitor to get a PSO in place as there were issues with neglect/possible drug use. SS not really interested as it was a matter for the court, but we now have CAFCASS involvement via. I think if you cannot afford a solicitor, a barrister can help you, or you can apply yourself.

We had a separate order in place from the police - community resolution order - to stop unwanted/derogatory messages.

Is that what you're asking?

PieonaBarm · 27/02/2023 19:19

It's different in Scotland, there's no CPS it's the Prosecutor Fiscal and likely the advice you've had so far relates to England and Wales where victimless prosecution in domestic matters is very much a thing.

I would imagine it's quality of evidence rather than number of pieces of evidence that matter though, much as it does in England and Wales.

Original poster

coodawoodashooda · 27/02/2023 19:27

PieonaBarm · 27/02/2023 19:19

It's different in Scotland, there's no CPS it's the Prosecutor Fiscal and likely the advice you've had so far relates to England and Wales where victimless prosecution in domestic matters is very much a thing.

I would imagine it's quality of evidence rather than number of pieces of evidence that matter though, much as it does in England and Wales.

The evidence is from a children's worker over a period of a year. I'd say the quality was excellent. Obviously the children won't go to the police. If I asked for the police to look at it would they then have to take action? In Scottish law that is. Thank you everyone. I am so grateful.

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PieonaBarm · 27/02/2023 19:41

I can't answer for Scotland I'm sorry I have no experience. What I can say is that what one person thinks is strong or indeed undermining evidence can be viewed differently by the prosecutors.

From what you've said about Scotland not supporting victimless prosecutions I imagine they would need witnesses (and if it's to do with your children this would likely mean them in some way) to give the evidence in court which is where you may have a problem if no one is supportive.

Original poster

coodawoodashooda · 27/02/2023 19:45

PieonaBarm · 27/02/2023 19:41

I can't answer for Scotland I'm sorry I have no experience. What I can say is that what one person thinks is strong or indeed undermining evidence can be viewed differently by the prosecutors.

From what you've said about Scotland not supporting victimless prosecutions I imagine they would need witnesses (and if it's to do with your children this would likely mean them in some way) to give the evidence in court which is where you may have a problem if no one is supportive.

Everyone, family wise, is supportive. We have just already been through so much.

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Thelonelychicken · 27/02/2023 19:59

I've just been through this I rang the police about ex's threats. Police took statements ect they deemed it enough to go to court. The only evidence I had was my word my mums and my OH. He was found guilty.

Original poster

coodawoodashooda · 28/02/2023 02:02

Thelonelychicken · 27/02/2023 19:59

I've just been through this I rang the police about ex's threats. Police took statements ect they deemed it enough to go to court. The only evidence I had was my word my mums and my OH. He was found guilty.

If you don't mind me asking what was his punishment? In Scotland?

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Needanewnamebeingwatched · 28/02/2023 07:38

I was answering England wise, not Scotland.

It's a minimum of two pieces of evidence and when I said police ca prosecute I of course meant they would build the case and CPS would proceed.

I'm not sure how is works in Scotland, but good luck

Original poster

coodawoodashooda · 28/02/2023 08:54

Needanewnamebeingwatched · 28/02/2023 07:38

I was answering England wise, not Scotland.

It's a minimum of two pieces of evidence and when I said police ca prosecute I of course meant they would build the case and CPS would proceed.

I'm not sure how is works in Scotland, but good luck

This has been really helpful. Thank you.

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Original poster

coodawoodashooda · 28/02/2023 08:57

If anyone else has any helpful experience to add I'd be really appreciative.

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JanglyBeads · 28/02/2023 09:03

You might find Lindy Bancroft and Silverman's (US) book on incest helpful - it described all the reasons why the authorities might not take maternal allegations of abuse seriously, which is depressing in one sense but leaves you understanding the system much more and therefore better armed.
Sorry can't remember the title and am at work atm.

You have to bear with all the American legal terminology though

Original poster

coodawoodashooda · 28/02/2023 15:10

JanglyBeads · 28/02/2023 09:03

You might find Lindy Bancroft and Silverman's (US) book on incest helpful - it described all the reasons why the authorities might not take maternal allegations of abuse seriously, which is depressing in one sense but leaves you understanding the system much more and therefore better armed.
Sorry can't remember the title and am at work atm.

You have to bear with all the American legal terminology though

Thank you for this.

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Thelonelychicken · 01/03/2023 00:24

Waiting on sentencing at the moment. He's on bail conditions. When he gets his sentence he'll be on a non molestation order

Justdontbejudgy · 01/03/2023 00:34

The police need corroboration in Scotland, but they can do 3rd party, in fact there is no such thing as "pressing charges" in Scotland. The Police choose to send a report to the Procurator Fiscal and can do this even if the alleged victim asks them not to. What they might mean is that without lack of corroborating evidence then they won't send the report to the PF. If they are unsettled in school and disclose something...then child protection procedures should be implemented.

If social work pursue things through the civil system them burden of "proof" is only 50/50. If a child is at risk of harm then report this to SW. If it is not being taken seriously, complain and/or take it to elected members for the local authority for the social work department. Also report to health professionals. Keep a diary. This is all corroboration.

You could also seek legal advice about getting an interdict in Scotland to prevent contact. This can have power of arrest. Again this is civil, so burden of proof is less than criminal.

Original poster

coodawoodashooda · 01/03/2023 13:32

Thelonelychicken · 01/03/2023 00:24

Waiting on sentencing at the moment. He's on bail conditions. When he gets his sentence he'll be on a non molestation order

Good luck.

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Original poster

coodawoodashooda · 01/03/2023 13:34

Justdontbejudgy · 01/03/2023 00:34

The police need corroboration in Scotland, but they can do 3rd party, in fact there is no such thing as "pressing charges" in Scotland. The Police choose to send a report to the Procurator Fiscal and can do this even if the alleged victim asks them not to. What they might mean is that without lack of corroborating evidence then they won't send the report to the PF. If they are unsettled in school and disclose something...then child protection procedures should be implemented.

If social work pursue things through the civil system them burden of "proof" is only 50/50. If a child is at risk of harm then report this to SW. If it is not being taken seriously, complain and/or take it to elected members for the local authority for the social work department. Also report to health professionals. Keep a diary. This is all corroboration.

You could also seek legal advice about getting an interdict in Scotland to prevent contact. This can have power of arrest. Again this is civil, so burden of proof is less than criminal.

This is very helpful. Thank you. How do I find out who the elected members are in my local authority?

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Justdontbejudgy · 02/03/2023 23:41

coodawoodashooda · 01/03/2023 13:34

This is very helpful. Thank you. How do I find out who the elected members are in my local authority?

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Sorry just back on. If you go onto the council website, search councillors and usually you can put a postcode in to find out which ward you are and there usually 3 or 4 per ward. You can also see which committees they are on, so I'd potentially select one if they are on a social work/care committee.

Original poster

coodawoodashooda · 03/03/2023 16:46

Justdontbejudgy · 02/03/2023 23:41

Sorry just back on. If you go onto the council website, search councillors and usually you can put a postcode in to find out which ward you are and there usually 3 or 4 per ward. You can also see which committees they are on, so I'd potentially select one if they are on a social work/care committee.

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Thank you again for this.

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