To refuse to pay nursery notice period fee in these circumstances?

[rsarw]

Posted a week ago about my 12 month old DS' nursery, which we're pulling him out of after a week after seening evidence of substandard care (examples listed below).

Their usual notice period is 2 months, for which we'd be liable for fees, but as we're pulling him out after 1 week becuase we're concerned the care is substandard surely we should only pay for the sessions he's actually had.

Keen to hear thoughts.

Examples of poor care:

babies being left to it/ not picked up or comforted when crying, multiple times - I’ve had to resist the urge to comfort them myself. It’s possible they were eventually picked up after I left but it went on for a good 5 mins and staff seemed to completely ignore it.

Very little staff interaction with babies, staff are rarely on the floor playing or interacting with them. Babies are desperate for attention so swarm me when I come in.

little girl fell off a bike toy badly, hitting her head. Member of staff didn’t know what to do and had to be told by another multiple times to apply a cold compress. She then picked DS up and put him on the same toy
despite the fact he’s not old enough and his key worker had to take him off it.

staff heating milk too hot for babies, and other staff member noticing and reminding them they needed to check it. Baby could presumably have burnt mouth if other staff hadn’t stepped in.

DS incredibly thirsty on return from first proper day, hadn’t had his milk, assuming also hadn’t had water.

staff expressing slight contempt for babies eg X does that for attention, ‘they throw themselves at the floor to getus to come over’

my son’s key worker hardly interacting with him at his settling sessions, not noticing/ leaving him to cry on the floor when upset (when I was there).

communication with me not good, when asking how the day/ session was or calling for an update they will just say ‘he seems ok’ or ‘he’s doing well’, then when I ask if he’s been crying it turns out he has.

staff seem very focussed on completing tasks eg nappies and meals and naps and app updates but not on general engagement with the babies. I get nursery is 3:1 and will inevitably be less attentive but it feels like the staff actively avoid the babies to try and get them to expect less and be more self sufficient.

Report it to whatever official body can investigate a failure in care. Easy to critics the OP for leaving her child there but it is hard to sometimes spot. This school www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-26294473 was a high end private school which ran for years with poor standards in child welfare, parents paid a fortune.

The school got away with it by bringing the children to reception to meet the parents at pick up times.

Easy to critics the OP for leaving her child there but it is hard to sometimes spot.

I agree sometimes parents have no idea what goes on, but that isn't there case here. The OP observed most of the things she describes as substandard care during the settling in sessions. the list of examples was mostly picked up at the settling sessions.

Eh? But the OP did spot it at 2 settling in sessions and still chose to leave their Ds there, so your post is completely irrelevant.

Easy to critics the OP for leaving her child there but it is hard to sometimes spot.

Well, yes, I agree entirely, but the OP has stated explicitly that most of her concerns are based on what she observed during the two settling in sessions, so she clearly did spot it. It is therefore entirely reasonable to question why she subsequently sent her child unaccompanied into a setting where she had already observed that the care was so unsatisfactory.

If she had decided that the care was unacceptable straight after the settling in sessions, then I think she would have a valid case. The fact that she chose to send him in after everything that she had witnessed would suggest that she didn't have any real concerns at the time about his safety.

I don't disagree with you but I remember pulling my daughter out of a nursery where I had been told by others the manager had a drinking problem and I could smell alchol on her breathe one day - owner denied it and still threatened me that I needed to pay the notice and I could not be bothered fighting it.

What does it say in the contract you signed about withdrawing your child?
Have you followed the complaints procedure?
Did you ask about your child having milk or water - was it possible that the staff tried to give your ds something to drink and he refused it?

If most of these things were seen at the settling in sessions, why did you then continue with the nursery placement? The time to pull out and not pay fees was then, if the things were that bad surely you wouldn’t have left him there alone. If you’ve taken up the place after the settling in sessions you should now pay the notice period.

Unfortunately whilst this nursery doesn't sound great, I can't see anything you have written that would warrant OFSTED involvement or breach of contract. Yes I would remove my DC and yes I would put in an official complaint with the nursery but in the kindest possible way OP, your child will not get the same 1:21 care you can provide at this or indeed any other nursery and for many parents (& some children) this can be quite a shock to the system and too much for some although of course some nurseries do it better than others. I would also say whilst there are of course good & bad nurseries, IMO it's the individual staff member esp keyworkers that make the difference to your child's experience in a nursery.

I worked in nurseries for years before becoming a childminder (now retired) and really do think babies and under 2/3's are better in a smaller home from home environment so nanny or childminder. By age 3 pre-school or nursery is beneficial for socialising but this is still possible with a good nanny or childminder.

You may be able to argue that the notice period doesn't apply because they are in breach of contract. In legal terms it would be difficult, because it could also be argued that by leaving your child there you accepted what they were offering, and also that the problems you saw in general didn't apply to your child but to others (with one possible exception). However, if you make it clear that you would defend any claim on these grounds they may well take the view that it just isn't worth suing you.

Having worked in that kind of setting many years ago I would say your only seeing a tiny snippet of their day. It’s really hard work. I have come across awful nurseries and brilliant ones. You need to trust your gut. I think you will have to pay the money but speak to them. Personally I would never have left my children in a nursery as I came across staff that I considered to not being doing their job properly. I chose a childminder for my own.

This

I don't think you have a leg to stand on. You've observed things that aren't ideal during 2 settling in sessions yet decided it's safe to leave your child despite your misgivings. You've observed hot milk and erong toy both which were corrected. Those staff members could have been new/in training. Even the first side incident was addressed quickly enough.
It doesn't sound great but is it adequate. Only uou can decide however unless theyve done (or not done) something 'reportable' I think up need to pay up as per contract. If it goes to court its unlikely you'll win unless you have evidence of these 'offences' and acknowledgement from management after you reported things.

I'd call the police after that.

You could also threaten to call the police... might make them let you off the contract.

I may not be the best person to advise bc I find my solicitor highly affective (he's paid by my in-laws) in almost any non-illegal situation. Most people and companies are shit scared of being sued into the ground.

Have you not paid upfront already?

The settling in period was for you to see if it was a good fit. It wasn't. So why did you send your child back there?! I think after the settling in would have been the time to pull them out and expect a discounted notice period. After that I can see why they'd want the full two months. Even though they sound terrible.

If you write and record clearly why you are pulling out and how soon I’d try and get away with not paying.

I removed my oldest as a known local pedo (older generations knew but younger where too young under the grandparents saw him) was seen dropping off his children with his Thai bride (check zero English for her bless her heart). I pulled my child that week. Never paid for the notice and they never chased. But about 10 of us pulled our children that same week.

For a couple of sessions. she did see the care was unacceptable and pulled her child within a week. Maybe should have done it sooner but hindsight is a wonderful thing and great for the critics.

Think about all the other kids who would have been there months/years.

They will pusue you through small claims court and they will win because you have no evidence of any of these things and they had nothing to do with your son's care

Don't pay. Very unlikely they will take you to Court because they would not want all the allegations you are making to come out. Also, you could argue they broke the contract first by not providing appropriate standards of care. Seriously, tell Ofsted and your local Council all this.

I don't get this. You are saying 10 families quit the nursey because you thought one of the parents was a paedo? Surely he wouldn't be allowed to have access to his kids if that was the case, and if he was you were trying to force the kids out of the nursery to be home with him. And thirdly how did it remotely affect you or your own kids??

Yep this is nurseries for you.

I worked as a temp in nurseries while I was between nanny jobs, it meant I got to see about 10 nurseries over the period of 6 months. When I have children I will never use nurseries, they are all like this, believe me.

can you use a nanny? or nanny share would be cheaper

what about a childminder that only accepts small numbers?

He was known via the older generation. Had left the local city then came back. He had brought a Thai bride zero English we had tried to make friends with her before. None of parents needed to be checked to enter the premises but most of us where not prepared to have our children at a preschool with a man in the local area known for sexually assaulting children.

It was the kind of area where all our parents basically went to school together. All it took was a few days where grandparents happens to be on the run before chatter started. Police were called who refused to divulge other than they would be talking to the preschool. We pulled our children. My child comes before a strangers.

Yes, she pulled her child out within a week, but that isn't the point.

She explicitly said that most of her concerns were picked up from what she observed the settling in sessions.

Are you honestly saying that you would take your child to a nursery for two settling in sessions, observe sub-standard care to the extent that you believe that the nursery would be in breach of their basic contract, then shrug your shoulders, hope for the best and then send your young child into their care for a couple more unaccompanied sessions? Really?

If I had serious concerns about a provider to the extent that I was unwilling to comply with the original contractual requirements because they were failing to provide a basic minimum standard of care, there is absolutely no fucking way that I would be sending my dc back into that environment by themselves. I don't believe that any responsible parent would do this.

babies being left to it/ not picked up or comforted when crying, multiple times - I’ve had to resist the urge to comfort them myself. It’s possible they were eventually picked up after I left but it went on for a good 5 mins and staff seemed to completely ignore it.

• where they actually crying or whinging? And if the staff are busy you often can't attend to a baby immediately. Try being a mum to twins!

Very little staff interaction with babies, staff are rarely on the floor playing or interacting with them. Babies are desperate for attention so swarm me when I come in.

• you were only there for 10 minutes to drop off and the settling sessions. It can't have been that bad otherwise you wouldn't have brought your son back.

little girl fell off a bike toy badly, hitting her head. Member of staff didn’t know what to do and had to be told by another multiple times to apply a cold compress.

• staff are getting training on the job and it's a good thing that staff ask what to do if they're not sure. Kids often fall off things.

She then picked DS up and put him on the same toy despite the fact he’s not old enough and his key worker had to take him off it.

• Ok, a mistake, but corrected immediately so not the end of the world.

staff heating milk too hot for babies, and other staff member noticing and reminding them they needed to check it. Baby could presumably have burnt mouth if other staff hadn’t stepped in.

• again nothing actually happened and the staff member was being supervised and corrected.

DS incredibly thirsty on return from first proper day, hadn’t had his milk, assuming also hadn’t had water.

• don't assume things, ask.

staff expressing slight contempt for babies eg X does that for attention, ‘they throw themselves at the floor to getus to come over’

• but some kids do things to get attention when in reality they don't need immediate care.

my son’s key worker hardly interacting with him at his settling sessions, not noticing/ leaving him to cry on the floor when upset (when I was there).
communication with me not good, when asking how the day/ session was or calling for an update they will just say ‘he seems ok’ or ‘he’s doing well’, then when I ask if he’s been crying it turns out he has.

• again, why carry on sending him if you weren't happy? Why did you not mention this to them? And they always use expressions at nurseries to make it sound like they had a nicer day than they actually did. Sometimes kids have rubbish days at nursery. It took one of my twins a LONG time to settle down!

staff seem very focussed on completing tasks eg nappies and meals and naps and app updates but not on general engagement with the babies. I get nursery is 3:1 and will inevitably be less attentive but it feels like the staff actively avoid the babies to try and get them to expect less and be more self sufficient.

• again, I don't think you were really there for long enough to make that judgement.

What do reviews online say about the nursery?

You can't expect not to pay the notice period, but perhaps ask if they have a waiting list then if someone else takes the place you can pay until the place is taken.

You clearly liked the nursery enough to choose it so this sounds a little like remorse and picking fault with it. Is it your child?