to be upset that DH taught DS1 (8) the word 'bugger'? - sorry, long post!

[keepcalmandcarryon]

DS1 (8) has been having some clashes at school with a new boy in his class, let's call him Child X, who was transferred from another class (quoting DS1 here) for being disruptive. Child X has so far physically attacked DS1 and DS2(5) on two separate occasions, in the school loos, and amongst other things has reduced DS1 to tears by chanting "DS1 is gay, DS1 is gay".

Discussed briefly with DH (hissing over the stove at suppertime) - asked him to talk to DS1, and (a) talk about what the word 'gay' means and (b) give him some Dad type strategies for dealing with this sort of thing. BTW have been talking to DS1's teacher as well and am happy with how the school is addressing the situation.

Subsequently find that DH has dealt very well with (a) - DH not the least homophobic, used all the phrases/approaches I would have done myself. However with (b) he advised him

(i) to ignore bully -tick

(ii) to ridicule bully - he used the phrase 'poo breath' - what?! apparently this is what DH used with some success in his youth to imply that bully is just using nasty words, "I'm not talking to you, you just use horrid words, Oh, Child X has poo breath" then whenever Child X says anything else nasty, "oh, can I smell a poo? It must be poo breath again" DO like this actually, in that if used with brio it wd make bully stop talking

but then, (iii) he told him, that if all else fails, he should call child X a 'stupid bugger'. DH says he gave this to DS1 as a weapon of last resort - a really rude, insulting phrase that wd impress his peers...

However I am REALLY sad that DH is teaching our boy this sort of thing! Lazy, weak use of language - and after just having had the whole 'what does gay mean?' talk? If he had taught him to call Child X a pathetic loser, I wd have had no problem.

However did pass this whole thing over to DH to deal with, rather than doing it myself. In DH's view the boy years are a maelstrom of male rivalry and, latterly, hormones, which is a tough arena to go into and which as a mother I can't really understand. Apparently when DH was 8 FIL told DH that if he got into a fight he should knee the other boy in the testicles. Charming.

Do sort of get DH's argument - but still a bit . Any thoughts/advice in this situation wd be appreciated!

And your eight year old son had never heard that word before, and didn't know it was a swear word. Yeah right

I'd be furious! I hate that word and to teach a child to swear just to "get one up" on the bully is doing nothing - he is lowering himself to the bully's level IMO.

I would try to rectify the situation and give your DS some other strategies - standing up to the bully is GOOD but not in such a way; he is merely doing what the bully is doing and using names to hurt - how is that any better than being a bully himself?

PS - not saying DS IS a bully....

er... none of you would last five seconds on the mean streets of any inner city.

i really really dont think bugger is that bad a word. and if hes never heard or said it before, then my names pope snappy of buggerland.

sorry, but i think youre being a bit precious and naive.

of course you dont want him going round witha potty mouth all the time, but seriously, as a last resort to bullying?? wow. thats a pretty soft bully imo.

lol pope snappy of buggerland!
I think you are being a bit ott tbh.
Lokk at the world around you, I don't think telling a bully to bugger off is something to be that worked up about.

interesting variations in reaction here - good to hear as I'm not just looking to have my own opinion confirmed.

LewisFan - thanks, that's stated my view much more succintly than I managed to. Will try to think of strategies without undermining what DH has said.

SLG - in the ranks of swearwords I do rank 'bugger' quite highly, higher say than 'bloody'. I do not use the former in front of my children, but do use the latter in extreme circs (eg backing car into lamp post). I feel it is an adult word and would be unhappy if my child used it in conversation.

He may well have heard it or even said it before: but in an 8yo sense, without actually understanding what it means. But to have his dad saying it's ok to say a word with such strong sexual connotations as an act of verbal aggression? That feels REALLY not ok to me. I feel one of my jobs as a mother of sons is to bring up responsible intelligent men who don't have to resort to violence, whether physical or verbal, to win an argument.

Oh, and being a bit pedantic here, the phrase I had a problem with was calling someone else a bugger, not saying bugger off.

The phrase we always have taught DS1 and DS2 to use if they are being got at, physically or verbally, is "BACK off", which I think is a good one as it is assertive but not an attack.

Will shut up now and retreat to my unrealistic utopian rural idyll...

I suppose if it is highly offensive word as far as you are concerned then your dh should have taken that into account.
Maybe your DH feels that there is a time to stand up to a bully and stop taking nonsense. He did say as a last resort, didn't he?

BACK off, that will really work at secondary school. Your kids will not be laughed at for saying that and the bullying will instantly stop.

i applaud your intentions and admire the values you are trying to teach.

where do you live? honest question...

Back off, delivered with the correct amount of implied aggression and confidence, may well work... its not the words but the delivery imo.

if you really hate the word, then yes, i can see why your are upset. i just cant imagine what on earth you or your dc are going to do when they come cross real aggression/the bullying escalates/somebody swears at them in more explicit terms.

i think your threshold is v low. i worry you are not going to handle more serious problems well.

hi TBH i do think YAB a little bit unrealistic unless you live somewhere that is untouched by the chav lifestyle as it is a common thing around my neck of the woods for 5yo children to tell grown adults to F off sad but true. it is admirable that you are teaching your DS manners and correct language and social skills though he will undoubtedly grow up to be one of the worlds few gentlemen
i understand what it is like to be battling a mans perspective as my DH has just (as a joke) taught my 2yo DD to tell me when she has had a 'shit' it those exact terms she has now grabbed on to the word with both hands and tells old ladies in the asda 'i had a shit' not very ladylike and she has a new dirty word in her vocabulary!! DH is now banned from getting annoyed with her for saying it and he gets an earful everytime she does
he has probably already heard alot of swear words in the playground and is probably over the moon to have permission to use one of the softer ones now
xx ei xx

i dont consider myself to be a chav BTW...DH now thats another story...
xx ei xx

hm...now, by now I have clicked onto the "use" of bugger in a swear word form...however...as it can also be used as kind of an endearment...as in...oh you little bugger...I really can't get to excited about it...

However, it may have not been the best call of op's dh....surely the bullied should never ever sink to the bullies low level...

Mrs R - thanks, this is the part of my DH's approach I agree with, that it is a last resort.

Violet Sky - ouch - that hurt. BACK off! Seriously, I wd expect my child's vocab to have got considerably more adult by secondary school, but I am talking about now, when he is (only just) 8. What would you consider to be appropriate language for an 8 yo?

We live in the wilds of the West Country and I don't hear the 5yo's round here telling adults to eff off. I think that's the point I'm making about the general acceptability of swear words in what I consider to be still fairly young children, used to or condoned by adults.

bugger doesnt mean the same as it used to,apparently,as dd1(9)is forever asking me what it used to mean since looking it up in the dictionary.

i call dd2 and dd3 little buggers all the time

i would never tell one of my children to stoop to the bully's level.i have only ever told them to ignore the bully and tell the teacher if they carry on.

mrsEi25-i also have a 2 year old who informs me when she(or her little sister) has done a 'shit' thanks to dh.

i dont think any 'swear' words are acceptable for children of any age. i was brought up terrified of what i would get if i uttered an obscenity. alot of my friend were raised the same and things just seem to have slipped. as to what is acceptable it is all down to personal opinion. i myself dont consider bugger to be a swear word but you do. we do live in totally different environments (i live in liverpool not far from the city centre) and as i said it is quite a common occurrance for small kids to be swearing and generally rude to adults. i am trying to raise my DD to have a better vocabulary (not easy with my DH and his 'sense of humour') but it isnt just down to what the parent teaches the child it is who the child mixes with etc that will have more influence IMO you DS will have heard alot of swear words whispered in the school yard but as long as you tell him the ways to win over the bullies without resorting to swearing then you will have done the best you can iyswim
xx ei xx

divastrop does your DH laugh hysterically when they say it aswell?? mine only gets annoyed when we get tuts and disgusted looks from elderly ladies men eh?!!
xx ei xx

he thinks its great.but he doesnt take her anywhere

i personally dont consider any words that are allowed on tv before 9pm to be swear words

keepcalmandcarryon,
I to have an 8yr old son, as well as a 13yr old dd. Of course swearing is wrong, of course we were brought up in a different era, where swearing of any kind resorted in a clip around the ear from our parents or the lady up the road.
But, have you been in a playground lately with a group of 8 yr olds. I went to pick ds up for a orthoptic appt last week and there were half a dozen kids playing football in the playground and they were swearing, they were saying EVERYTHING, and believe me Bugger is very tame compared to what I heard.
Of course it is sad, but we live in a different era. Oh, btw I live on the south downs and this was a very small catholic primary, so hardly inner city.
Even after saying all that I still think saying BACK off would be met with derision even from an eight yr old. Sorry.