To think a lot of the Uk looks like a state

[Novembermummy88]

Not sure if I am being dramatic or if years of austerity are really starting to show…? Lately I’ve really started to notice how filthy, run down and falling apart everywhere looks! I live in a town in the south east on the borders of the M25. Every where there are gapping pot holes (can hardly avoid the volume there are now and genuinely concerned I will lose a wheel at some point!), broken lamp posts, the volume of litter / filth on the roads seems very high and can’t remember the last time I saw a road sweeper, and things like pathways are a state, road markings worn out, SO many closed/dilapidated shops….the town just looks awful as do many of the nearby towns! Is it just the South East looking like this? Aibu?! Or have I watched too much Selling Sunsets and setting my expectations too high…???

This is the kind of place I’m desperate to live in

Agreed. We need some competent people prepared to do what is needed, acknowledge and remove the Brexit elephant in the room, and implement long-term plans even if they are not initially popular because the electorate has such scant understanding of economics. We need grown ups, with proper expertise. Little sign of them anywhere in the HOC, so the decline in living standards will continue unfortunately. People can moan and fight amongst themselves of the crumbs if they wish but nothing will improve unless proper economic plans are implemented.

The fact the chancellor had to ask for research on why the economy is flatlining says everything. At every level of the tax and benefits system there are absurd disincentives to increasing productivity. Anybody with a brain would remove them.

amp.theguardian.com/business/2023/feb/13/full-time-part-time-work-no-longer-pays-uk-economy

People have told them very clearly what the problem is: if they work more hours/ go for promotions then they are penalised so heavily by benefit withdrawal/ higher rate tax and withdrawal of child benefit/ withdrawal of personal allowance plus 30 hrs childcare plus tax free childcare (that one can result in an effective tax rate of over 85%!) that it isn't worth them doing. Single people and particularly single parents are massively penalised by the tax system being taxed far more on the same household income. So, that is an easy fix. Remove the bottlenecks. He can do that overnight, if he wishes. Totally within his power.

The results of investment in a proper energy security strategy and infrastructure and scaffolding for small businesses to grow so that business investment is viable again will take longer to bear fruit, but first you have to create the conditions for this to be possible. I.e. fix the tax system and rejoin the single market and customs union. This is entirely within Government control so if people want things to start to improve that's what they need to lobby MPs for.

The deliberate fiscal drag is also making it much worse, obviously. They need to automatically uprate all thresholds for benefits, tax, pensions and savings with inflation every year. Starting with a large catch up adjustment.

I rarely see posts that concentrate on economics over politics so it’s good to have some.

Brexit threads have been running a while and I have asked if posters who are unhappy have written to their MPs but no one has said yes.

I’m wondering why the Brexit vote is still so important if people are this unhappy. And I can only think 13 years out has made the opposition too cautious to talk about it.

I think a clear very strict policy on crime is desperately needed. There is so much low level crime in my area that we’ve all accepted it. Local mp gives no shits as she’s a woke narcissist who only cares about her pet projects.

I rarely see posts that concentrate on economics over politics so it’s good to have some.

This is what we all need: clear understanding of the causes and how to improve things. It can be done. But it won't be if people squabble amongst themselves or insist changes must only benefit them personally rather than make wholesale changes to improve the system so it is functional at all levels. It very much suits those in power to divide and rule rather than have clear, evidence-based thinking on what policies are required, sadly.

Brexit threads have been running a while and I have asked if posters who are unhappy have written to their MPs but no one has said yes.

I have. But yes it is immensely frustrating that these posts come up with increasing frequency and yet when someone attempts - as I have here - to explain what needs to change to make things better, I can imagine that few will get behind it and lobby their MPs for it. Ultimately MPs want to keep their jobs so if their inbox is filled by emails from constituents all saying the same thing then they will listen, with a GE coming next year! The problem is people not doing so as you say.

I’m wondering why the Brexit vote is still so important if people are this unhappy. And I can only think 13 years out has made the opposition too cautious to talk about it.

The opposition are cowards. They also have no faith in the British public (perhaps justifiably?) to be sensible and rational. People have been promised change too many times so many perhaps might not believe them if the program I described was set out, that this would in fact change things for the better for everyone. But ultimately one would hope that enough people are intelligent enough to realise that it would? Idk. We don't seem to have any politicians with any conviction anymore in any party who are prepared to speak truth and fight to get support for something that will actually work. Instead they play the game trying to figure out what policies would be popular, rather than effective. Then once elected their hands are tied and they cannot implement the effective ones. Very depressing.

With a demographic time bomb about to go off, time is running out to do this. If productivity does not rise significantly, then obviously there will be nothing in the long-term but ever-rising living costs in proportion to real-terms earnings and continual cuts in services. This is the most basic economics: raising productivity is the only solution.

Yes to all this. Well said

Perhaps it's not that difficult to stop people just chucking their litter away without a second thought. The dog poo problem has really improved through fining and various campaigns. The problem is a lot of people just don't think - they assume that a street cleaner will clear it up for them. We managed to stamp out spitting and dog fouling is a lot better than it used to be (in London anyway). We're getting a bit better gradually on our plastic bag consumption. This problem isn't insurmountable! But we do need to put pressure on councils and MPs to do something on our behalf. Publicity campaigns, fining, shaming, plentiful and regularly emptied bins. I love the MacDonalds car reg idea if it's feasible.

But regardless of the efforts of individuals, as I've explained, significant improvements to quality of life will not, cannot, happen unless productivity rises.

People want the Council to ensure little is collected, potholes are filled, antisocial behaviour and "low level crime" like intimidation, burglary, theft, fly tipping, etc is dealt with?

That requires funding. People in the UK are taxed to death already vs cost of living, at every level of earnings (outside the super rich and while a moral issue, will make NO difference to fixing these problems on a national scale so while I agree, that is not the pressing issue so I'll leave that aside in this comment as it is a moot point in terms of whether standards of living for everyone else improves). This situation will only get worse as the demographic time bomb explodes. We know this, it is fact, and has been known to be coming for many years. People can't afford to pay more tax, but services need more funding for things to improve and salaries need to rise across the board.

How do we achieve this? People can either squabble over dividing up the every shrinking amount of resource it's possible to extract through rising taxes to meet ever growing needs, and watch while their living standards drop continuously for the next few decades. Or, they can lobby MPs for obvious economic reforms that will increase productivity and gradually raise living standards and mean there is also more money available for public services.

That is the choice. If people want to moan and endure it, then this will continue. If people want to change it then lobby for the tax reforms I described, rejoining the single market and customs union and a proper long-term strategy on industrial policy, infrastructure and education.

If you choose not to do so, then effectively you are condemning yourselves and your children to more of the same.

It's SO frustrating that so many people seem to want to complain about the issues they see but be unable/ unwilling to take a step back and look at WHY the UK is struggling so much compared to its historical comparators, and push for the things which would actually change that. We don't need to reinvent the wheel here. It's very clear what needs to be done. The most baffling part is why, as @MarshaBradyo observed, most people say they are unhappy but aren't pressuring their MPs to make the necessary changes which would - over time - improve things. Why not?

Because anyone who has an interest is doing just about OK and like a lobster in a pot of cold water has scant realisation that the heat is being turned up so very gradually that there is no time to panic until the inevitable happens. Thatcher also destroyed society so that no one really gives a damn about anyone else as long as, “I’m alright jack”.

The ones at the bottom of the pile are less visible so most people do not really care.

@ThatOldHag well if no one trusts the opposition to do anything different that's the end isnt it ? You actually called them cowards which is somewhat unfair seeing that they are pretty much hamstrung by a media that's quick to dismiss them as looney lefties or communists. That's precisely why Starmer is staying low key about potential policies because if he speaks out he gets shot down either by the vocal far left minority in his party (a la gender woo issues), the tories who ironically have a tendency to pilfer their ideas or a mainly right wing msm.

I agree that those things are part of the causes of the current situation. Even your comment is yet more divisive speak about who is to blame etc. People can keep having that argument ad infinitum, having Governments make marginal changes that make no overall difference, just "robbing Peter to pay Paul" within a dysfunctional system which due to its structural issues re. the tax system and cut off from our trading partners cannot possibly deliver any productivity growth, so making something better for one group will by definition just impoverish another. Or, people could accept that productivity must rise so that living standards rise for everyone AND better public services can be afforded, at the same time.

My point was rather: here is a clear explanation of what needs to be done to improve things. Will people back it, or not?

If not, then they can sit and moan all they like but the decline in services and living standards will continue.

I think they are cowards. I understand why they are being, but they still are. I think also that our current Government is completely corrupt, and cares not one jot for the populace. What is depressing is seeing nobody of any talent, competence or conviction anywhere in the HOC.

However, even incompetent people can be pressed to do the right things if citizens exercise their rights and pressure their MPs. MPs do not want angry constituents going into a general election next year. If a large proportion of people emailed their MPs (of any colour) and demanded the reforms I'd set out then believe me they would be escalating those demands up the chain and they'd be enacted/ appearing in election manifestos. It is within the public's power to do something, because MPs want to keep their jobs. If people pressured en masse for the policies that would work, MPs would be pressured into doing it.

But people don't. So they aren't.

OldHag is right. Mn loves a Brexit thread but for some reason it’s not translating to pressure on MPs, from the wider public too of course.

MPs react to what fills their inboxes and currently the Brexit voter is to be feared more in terms of losing their vote.

I would also say it’s cowardly but mostly because they are people who really do not want to lose after 13 years and they won’t rock the boat for any reason even if economically it’s not as good.

It’s not the media though, Labour can’t hide behind this, it’s caution when faced with a long period of loss. In any case the media has taken the Tories out for ages, party gate was carnage for example. The media wants profit and Tories are quite a good gig atm

East of England market town - more than half the town centre shops, including all the major dept stores, have disappeared and not been relet. Our new high street ‘anchor’ store, in the space that used to be occupied by marks and spencer, is now a B&M bargains, and the frontage looks horrendous - it actually looks ‘boarded up’ but they’ve finished. That’s just the look. There is no need to entice people into a B&M Bargains with a window display…,

The only stores that seem to survive now are the likes of wilkos, peacocks, primark etc. No independent stores stand a chance. And the disappearance of the dept stores means no clean public toilets when you are shopping. Another incentive to rush off home.

Covid was a tipping point for our town. No way back now except to rip it all out and turn it over to housing. And this is a town in which I was fined £75 during covid on my way to a vaccination centre for cycling through an empty ghost town shopping centre.

MPs react to what fills their inboxes and currently the Brexit voter is to be feared more in terms of losing their vote.

I would also say it’s cowardly but mostly because they are people who really do not want to lose after 13 years and they won’t rock the boat for any reason even if economically it’s not as good.

Yup. But IF their inboxes were filled with constituents demanding these changes that would actually start us on the road to improvements in living standards, they might then have the courage to do it.

Even Tory MPs get the wind up them when their inbox is stuffed with constituents all emailing saying the same thing.

The problem is the public is not putting pressure on either party to do what is needed. We only have ourselves - as a populace - to blame for this. If enough people demanded what needs to be done, then it would be done. These people want to keep their jobs. It is entirely within the public's power to make them do it, it simply requires enough people all telling them the same thing. But people aren't doing that, even though the policies required are well researched and evidenced and obvious.

I am in London and feel that the litter problem and dog poo has got worse, not better. I am in North London, in quite an urban area. I think the dog poo issue is worse as so many people have dogs but don’t want the responsibility of picking up poo. I have never seen anyone enforcing the fines!!

@MarshaBradyo maybe plenty of mumsnetters don't live in a Brexit leave vote area- so pointless contacting MP as she would thoroughly agree- we have a Lib Dem MP and council in Bath and the town/city looks way better in my opinion since they had full control.

Re your title:

I was wondering which particular state you had in mind. Lol

It's not just about Brexit though, if you read the discussion. Yes - obviously for growth we need to rejoin the single market and customs union. Most British people realised that quite some time ago per consistent polling.

But this discussion has also been about what needs to happen internally to make the UK economy functional again: removing the bottlenecks in the tax system caused by tax and benefit and childcare provision thresholds, removed the LTA issue, uprating all thresholds with inflation each year, so that we are not disincentivising our own populace to work more.

And then yes, a proper industrial strategy. The US and EU - despite rises in interest rates and international economic pressures - are implementing huge multi-billion plans to encourage investment and business growth. The UK has already made itself an undesirable place to invest with Brexit. It has no plan like this. Why would an international business invest here? With crumbling infrastructure and skills shortages? The balance of payments deficit is now 8%. How do people propose that the country continues to fund itself? 2% before Brexit was bad enough.

We need food and energy security strategies. We import hydro-power from Norway when we're surrounded by coastline! Water will become and ever more valuable resource yet no new reservoirs have been built here in decades, in one of the rainiest countries that has an abundance of it, we are told after a few weeks of rainfall that there is a water shortage because they've not stored any of it! All completely insane. We have engineers and tech and with scaffolding could grow many new businesses with high margin, high paid jobs. Where is the infrastructure, the training to provide skilled employees, the laws to stop any successful start-up being bought up and stifled?

The only solution is productivity growth. How are you suggesting to your MP that that is achieved so that living standards rise and there is money for the services people want/ need? I have made suggestions on this thread that would be a good start, that are within their power to do immediately. Have you asked your MP to do this? If not, do you have better ones? If so, what are they please and have you been lobbying your MP to do that?

I'm going to go against the flow here a bit. So yes, littering is up, and services down. But you know what. Locally to us, so many residents groups have been set up and go out and about and organise cleaning days. In our village a very famous retiree goes out on his bike and litter picks every single day. If something is dumped, the council come out pretty quick and clear it up. Pot holes are filled as long as they are reported. Takes a couple of days.

I do think communities and individuals could do a lot more without the default of it's someone else's problem.

I think a pp noted that previous generations were proud of where they lived, and kept their areas clean and nice. That has definitely declined.

Why are they increasing fiscal drag when this will reduce productivity further? Why are they continuing the tax single adults more on the same household income, which makes especially single parents far poorer and exacerbates child poverty which then means more pressure on services and less tax revenue in the future when we will need revenue even more than now? Lessons to be learned from other countries who do not do this. Again, evidence based policies, not ideological. Why should a single parent lose child benefit at £50k when a couple can earn £99k and claim it? Why should a single parent lose tax free childcare and funded nursery when a couple earning £199k can claim it? Why is it not financially viable for many mothers to go back to work? Losing benefits for every hour works to such an extent it's not worth doing. Why are people losing child benefit and being taxed massively at £50k, when this threshold for higher rate tax would be £90k if it had been uprated with inflation properly? Why is the personal allowance being withdrawn at £100k so people pay 40% below that and then anything from 60-85% tax above that (depending whether they have children). At every level, people will not work more and take on more stress if they don't get pay for it that is worthwhile. So, day one job if you are chancellor is to get rid of all of the above, and watch productivity go up massively in a matter of months. This makes everyone richer, and means more tax take therefore better funded services. It really isn't complicated or hard to do.