Is the whole ‘russel group’ thing just snobbery?

[MrsPBlotto]

DD is 17 and has applied to university this summer. Granted her course is very vocational so perhaps this bias only applies for academic subjects. All but one of the universities she’s applied to are post 1992 and the one uni she has applied to that’s not one is not an RG. I’m not bothered in the slightest as for the field DD wants to go into a degree is a degree and I’m far more concerned that she’s happy at the university she goes to.

However, I’ve seen a lot of posts here and comments from other parents saying that an RG is the best of the best and almost implying russel groups are the only universities worth going to. I’m not sure this is actually true as I know a lot of people who’ve gone to ex poly unis and been far more successful in life than those who’s gone to RG’s (granted that’s anecdotal). And I really don’t understand where this bias comes from that somehow a self proclaimed group of 20 or so universities are somehow the best of the best and any others (especially if post 1992) are not worth the money. Is this just snobbery and people trying to set themselves apart or is there any truth to the idea russel groups are inherently better universities?

I went to an RG uni but I didn’t know until at least 10 years after I graduated 🤣 I don’t think it matters, it certainly wouldn’t influence my choice of institution.

Not true in graduate recruitment in most big companies nowadays. They do blind recruitment.

Thankfully we've moved on from nepobabies and are more interested in getting a diverse workforce

Worth recognising that there is a lot of variation within the Russel Group, particularly when considering research. Sheffield is not Cambridge. Durham is not Imperial.

I don't think any snobbery is warranted at all from this group, especially when thinking about UG courses.

I did history at a RG, and had open days at several RG universities, including Oxbridge.

Oxbridge did nothing to sell the course and rested on their reputation. York had bad student safety concerns, and didn't put much effort into their open days. Sheffield, Liverpool and Durham all put an effort into doing a proper, engaging pitch to potential students.

It was a good example of how little some institutions see the relationship as a two way process!

In terms of employment, it's highly dependent on field. Some fields, like law, really care where you did your degree and generally getting a pupilage etc is much more difficult if you didn't go to a top 20 uni (not necessarily Russell Group).

In some cases, if you want to progress in accademia/research then Russell Group will help.

But equally in some fields it doesn't matter as much, and some fields employers are more interested in highly rated unis for that subject, rather than just "Russell Group". For example, for art, Goldsmiths is generally considered the best place to go, Loughborough for sport etc.

Some employers like highly specialised degrees too - the most successful person I know (financially) did a specialized degree at Nottingham Trent and now works in the energy sector as a consultant earning really good money. I know a lot of people who went to RG unis who earn a lot less.

In terms of teaching quality, it certainly used to be the case that at Russell Group unis, you were more likely to be taught by pHD students etc, whereas at more teaching focused unis, you'd be more likely to be taught by more senior lecturers, at least at undergrad. Most of those lectures will still do research and may still be leading in their specific field.

Definitely in terms of earning potential it depends a lot more on the degree you do, and the result you come out with. I think it used to be the case that doing eg History at a well respected uni would open a lot of doors in eg business, but I think that is getting less and less to be the case and many employers would now prefer the person with the degree that's more specifically tailored to their field or offered a year in industry etc.

At this stage I do think the RG is mainly a marketing group, but because it's successful it does still influence some employers. But if it were dissolved tomorrow then I think employers would still respect a lot of unis on the list.

But do people really rate, say Southampton and Sheffield over Lancaster and Bath? I'm not convinced.

You have heard of google though right?

As far as I understand it, the Russell Group was mainly a collection of similar research-led universities who could use their combined power/reputation for lobbying government about education policy and research funding. The marketing thing came later.

It's entirely "horses for courses." I have degrees from Oxbridge, RG, and non-RG institutions and they all served their purpose and were right for what I wanted/needed. DD is studying a design subject at an art school which grew into a poly (and then into a uni); for visual and performing arts/design, RG is pretty much irrelevant. (In those subjects the degree class is also pretty much irrelevant compared to your final portfolio/showreel etc. if you do manage to break into the field for work. It's a different world.)

It's not snobbery to acknowledge some universities are higher performing than others.
When a set percentage of students have to have each grade, and students are on a bell curve, the quality of work required for a particular grade is going to be higher if you've got a straight A cohort than those on Cs and Ds.

There's some top universities that are good for research and academic stuff as they largely teach academic subjects led by leading researchers. There's some post 92, less research intensive, institutions who have more applied modules, vocational courses and do more on employability. If the course is right for the student then that's what matters.

I went to a pretty shit uni for my undergraduate. I would say a tier down from RG, maybe even two down. I got a masters there in the end and went and did my PhD at a RG after and then I did a postdoc at an elite European University. I am now in industry doing something highly technical (think coding and AI). So no, I don't think it will hold anyone back, although going to Oxbridge or a RG does open more doors and make it easier, but it isn't the be-all-and-end-all.

But do people really rate, say Southampton and Sheffield over Lancaster and Bath? I'm not convinced.

only people who haven’t looked any university league tables for the past ten years or so.

In my opinion, the ending of vocational based polytechnics and calling almost all degree awarding bodies universities was a mistake. I also think the 50% going to university target was as well, and the consequence is that apprenticeships and other skills are devalued, leading to a shortage of these valuable trades/skills.

We seem to have replaced the stigma of failing the 11+ with one of failing to go to university, and to an extent a second one between Russell Group and other universities.

Your daughter has done the right thing. She has identified what she wants to study and where she most wants to study that course. Putting the institution before the course is letting the tail wag the dog.

The former polytechnics usually have the best reputations in certain more vocational subject areas. They might be looked down upon by the ignorant, but within their own fields of expertise they can be top of the tree.

I don’t think people really understand what Russell Group means. While I was at Durham, it left the 1994 group and joined the Russell Group. It’s just about research. How much do you care about the university’s research when you’re looking for an undergraduate course? I would suggest teaching quality is far more important at that level.

The same for “Ivy League”. It’s a sports
league. There are excellent US universities that aren’t part of it.

I've worked in student services in both, and from that perspective non RG look after students much better.

The RG uni seemed to think that students should be seen and not heard, and if they had any problems...well buck up and sort it yourself, you are at a red brick uni, we don't do struggling students!.

When choosing a uni, look very carefully at the non teaching/ academic stuff. Look at the reputation of the Students Union, Disability & Dyslexia support, financial support etc. Even if you think your child won't need these services, their NSS scores and reviews will tell you loads about how they look after students in general.

I’ve just realised DD’s choices at the moment are all RG (I had to look them up) with Manchester being her first.

Ugh I’d die of shame if my DC went to a fucking poly like Sunderland or anglia Ruskin and came out with a medical degree. 🙄

Nobody outside of MN gaf about “Russel group”.

Hardly any universities interview now. Oxbridge aside, you are MORE likely to have an interview for a non RG university , for example for nursing, design, physio, creative arts, than for a RG university.

I think some universities are undoubtedly better than others, and some degrees at definitely more valuable than others. However, I think RG vs Non-RG is a pretty poor guide to this.

Yes, most of the RG institutions tend to have a pretty good reputation but there are a few that aren't really up there with the rest, and equally, there are some excellent institutions that aren't in the RG for whatever reason.

Of course. And after I saw this thread I googled it. So maybe I should have phrased it I didn’t even know what a Russel Group uni was until I saw this thread so then googled it but that feels a bit longwinded

@Ciri Lancaster I like as well

But where did Yolanda end up now? I hope it's Hull. Lots of opportunities there. @boys3

@Postapocalypticcowgirl Lots of potential DH material at Loughborough. Nothing to scoff at

Out of interest what type of subjects please? I know Surrey is the only university in the world to offer a tonmeister degree. But which post 92’s are better for what subjects please? I’m not challenging as I’m sure you’re correct; I’m genuinely interested.

That's a pretty big question and is a reason I ask people to check subject rankings as well as overall university rankings. For example I work in a university that is mid ranked but the faculty I work in ranks highly internationally, much much higher than the university overall.

Courses that have stuck out to me have been:
Huddersfield- music, transport and logistics, education
Edge Hill - education, English
Leeds Beckett - sports, education
Man met - animation and game's design, fashion marketing, creative writing

And health professions courses at post 92 institutions always score highly.

@cassiatwenty runs yoga retreats in Costa Rica. 😀

I think it very much depends on career choices. Competitive courses such as law definitely favour candidates from RG unis.