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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Is the whole ‘russel group’ thing just snobbery?

624 replies

MrsPBlotto · 22/02/2023 15:17

DD is 17 and has applied to university this summer. Granted her course is very vocational so perhaps this bias only applies for academic subjects. All but one of the universities she’s applied to are post 1992 and the one uni she has applied to that’s not one is not an RG. I’m not bothered in the slightest as for the field DD wants to go into a degree is a degree and I’m far more concerned that she’s happy at the university she goes to.

However, I’ve seen a lot of posts here and comments from other parents saying that an RG is the best of the best and almost implying russel groups are the only universities worth going to. I’m not sure this is actually true as I know a lot of people who’ve gone to ex poly unis and been far more successful in life than those who’s gone to RG’s (granted that’s anecdotal). And I really don’t understand where this bias comes from that somehow a self proclaimed group of 20 or so universities are somehow the best of the best and any others (especially if post 1992) are not worth the money. Is this just snobbery and people trying to set themselves apart or is there any truth to the idea russel groups are inherently better universities?

OP posts:
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RecommendedForYou · 10/03/2023 06:52

PhotoDad · 10/03/2023 05:52

@RecommendedForYou When I went off to Oxbridge, two others from my A-level English group at school did too. One was going to become a playwright, the other a poet. Thirty-ish years on, and one is now a fund manager, the other a corporate lawyer. I felt immensely sorry for them.

Exactly @PhotoDad That is a worry I have about one of my sons. There is so ‘much more’ to him and I worry he may default to a city career in the end. He always wanted to change the world for the better. That’s much harder to do as a fund manager..

Butterflywing · 10/03/2023 07:20

Media studies are fine, the creative industry in this country is worth billions.

You are disingenous if you equate that to the study of something that will benefit the future of mankind that needs to attract a high level of funding and attract researchers of world reknown unless you belt that too is snobbery!! 😂

Butterflywing · 10/03/2023 07:21

Believe*

VioletaDelValle · 10/03/2023 07:22

It's just insanity that most mums on this thread think that education is not that important and the uni you go to doesn't matter.
Good job nobody has actually said that then isn't it! 🤷🏼‍♀️

Butterflywing · 10/03/2023 07:29

Reputation comes from somewhere doesn't it?

Is it just down to snobbery why lectures from Bolton wouldn't be received in the same way as a lectures from an RG University on the world stage?

And if it is down to reputation, do you not think it's deserved if hundreds of years of hard work and good research has gone into gaining that reputation?

Honestly! 🙄

RampantIvy · 10/03/2023 07:39

Is it just down to snobbery why lectures from Bolton wouldn't be received in the same way as a lectures from an RG University on the world stage?

I think the snobbery on this thread is mainly from people who consider a university that is not a top 10 university beyond the pale.

DD's 1st class (accredited by a professional body) STEM degree from an RG university that is outside the top 10 is not worth the paper it is written on according to one particular poster (and yes, I am still smarting from that nasty comment).

I agree with comments that only measuring success by the number of millions you have in the bank is rather narrow minded and not the only measure.

Not everyone wants to be a crook banker/lawyer in the city.

VioletaDelValle · 10/03/2023 07:41

Butterflywing · 10/03/2023 07:29

Reputation comes from somewhere doesn't it?

Is it just down to snobbery why lectures from Bolton wouldn't be received in the same way as a lectures from an RG University on the world stage?

And if it is down to reputation, do you not think it's deserved if hundreds of years of hard work and good research has gone into gaining that reputation?

Honestly! 🙄

Of course, but the RG aren't the be all and end all and other universities/courses have excellent reputations too.

Lots of employers know that.....

Newnamenewme23 · 10/03/2023 08:27

Butterflywing · 10/03/2023 07:29

Reputation comes from somewhere doesn't it?

Is it just down to snobbery why lectures from Bolton wouldn't be received in the same way as a lectures from an RG University on the world stage?

And if it is down to reputation, do you not think it's deserved if hundreds of years of hard work and good research has gone into gaining that reputation?

Honestly! 🙄

RG “reputation” comes simply from joining though. Not actions or results.

it’s good marketing. People now believe that a RG is somehow better than a non Russell group. Yet if you know your subject or recruit in an area, you know Lancaster etc. have a better reputation gained from actual quality of courses, employability of graduates etc.

so RG reputation is misleading IMO. I’d advise future students to ignore RG and look at the individual course/uni’s reputation, rather than some arbitrary club they belong to.

RosaBonheur · 10/03/2023 08:40

Butterflywing · 10/03/2023 07:29

Reputation comes from somewhere doesn't it?

Is it just down to snobbery why lectures from Bolton wouldn't be received in the same way as a lectures from an RG University on the world stage?

And if it is down to reputation, do you not think it's deserved if hundreds of years of hard work and good research has gone into gaining that reputation?

Honestly! 🙄

I think it's more complicated than that.

At a basic level, you need higher grades to get into Bristol than you do to get into Bolton, so employers make certain assumptions about the kind of students who go to Bolton. This is probably even more true now students can use clearing to get into a better university if they exceed their expected grades, as opposed to a few years ago when clearing was only for students who had missed their grades and needed to find a university that would take them with lower grades.

In terms of the quality of teaching, academics also tend to want to gravitate towards more prestigious universities, so it's possible that the quality of the teaching is better. This one I think is less clear cut, because many academics work their way "up" until they get the position they want at the university they want, where they then stay until they retire. I went to Bristol to study a competitive subject, and not all the lecturers were as high quality as I was expecting. I also remember an excellent young lecturer who resigned very suddenly at the end of my first year, after many of us had signed up for the module she was teaching the following year and bought the books on the reading list, because Bath Spa University offered her a full time post on a better salary. Those of us taking her module ended up being taught by someone absolutely awful, who had been dredged up from God knows where at the last minute to fill the vacancy.

I definitely felt that Bristol was relying on its reputation a lot, and that that reputation wasn't necessarily deserved.

So I think it mostly comes down to the perceived quality of the students, and as a general rule, it is true that students with higher grades and better CVs will be offered places at the "top" universities, whereas universities such as Bolton are much easier to get into.

What this doesn't account for is the fact that some students will need to go to university in their home town, perhaps for financial reasons or because they have caring responsibilities, and some students are simply poorly advised. A student from a working class background who is the first person in their family to even think about going to university is probably not going to be as attuned to university rankings. They won't necessarily know whether Bristol is better than Birmingham or Brighton. And there won't be anyone in their family telling them not to apply to Bolton because it doesn't have a good reputation. So they will be stabbing in the dark a lot more. And when they get an offer from Bolton, their families and friends are more likely to say, "That's great, well done!" rather than, "Really? Are you sure?"

I would still expect the brightest and most driven students to have enough wherewithal to research universities properly themselves. I think you're highly unlikely to find a really exceptional student studying an academic subject at Bolton. But I do think there are probably a fair number of decent students at universities like Bolton, who are just as good if not better than some of the more average students at Bristol. It's just that those average students at Bristol had parents who send them to private school or paid for private tutoring and hockey club and flute lessons and hired someone to write their personal statement and made sure they applied to Bristol and Durham and St Andrews rather than Bolton and Derby and Wolverhampton. That's where the unfairness comes in, I think.

hettie · 10/03/2023 09:16

@RosaBonheur You are so right. I had no clue about any of this when I applied, my dad had left school at 15 with no qualifications, neither parent had been to uni or knew the first thing about UCAS. My instinct was but to go at all but dad persuaded me. I ended up at a Russell grp uni by chance (well for the grades obv) I'm not sure I first heard the term tbh. Since then I've done a Master's and doctorate and also lectured at a non Russell grp. Are there differences, has it made a difference...hard to know. I'm successful in my field,....The quality of the teaching where I was a lecturer was more consistently good than in my undergrad uni (some great, some crap) but then the whole system has become much more feedback informed so I imagine my old department has had to weed out the crap over the years (or at least minimise their contact with students). It does remain the case that some unis have higher entry criteria so the cohort will be different. I certainly don't recruit on university name, I couldn't there is a really clear process designed to minimise bias...

Piggywaspushed · 10/03/2023 09:51

Butterflywing · 10/03/2023 07:20

Media studies are fine, the creative industry in this country is worth billions.

You are disingenous if you equate that to the study of something that will benefit the future of mankind that needs to attract a high level of funding and attract researchers of world reknown unless you belt that too is snobbery!! 😂

But it does attract research and funding and is offered , in various forms at many RG universities.

Piggywaspushed · 10/03/2023 09:52

Is benefit the future of mankind the benchmark now?

What about Classics? Offered at the 'very best' universities...

The funding doesn't all go to sciences, which I assume is what you are implying.

RosaBonheur · 10/03/2023 09:53

For what it's worth, I know a woman who read law at Oxford and trained as a solicitor at Slaughter and May - a magic circle firm - who reckons media studies is the most useful subject she ever studied.

Xenia · 10/03/2023 09:53

I don't think anyone is sneering at anyone just because they think one school or one university is better than another nor do I think many of us are against our children working hard at school, getting good grades and having choices. You have fewer choices in life and probably less money if you idle around and don't work hard. That does not mean you cannot live a good life of course.

Most parents want to pick a good school, help their child do well and go to a good university. It is not rocket science to say that - it is just a fact. So it would be a pity if a parent reading the thread conclude - okay he can go to the place where everyone with C grades goes and need not bother to work hard for A levels as it won't matter. I think that is untrue. It does matter in many jobs. The only reason law and I believe medicine have been mentioned on the thread is those require high grades and passing very difficult exams and I suppose are "professions" which have already been regarded as bit harder t get into that business/trade, in the UK and internationally. I have done the careers evenings at my sons' school (which is only minority white and most first or second generation immigrant and fee paying) and many of those immigrant parents take their teenagers to the medicine, law, accountancy stalls for a reason - because they know earning well may not be necessary for rich or privileged people but for the rest of us it certainly helps in life if you have enough money.

RosaBonheur · 10/03/2023 09:58

My mum used to tutor kids and she had a similar observation about children from immigrant families, especially Asian families.

I guess you don't move half way across the world so your children can work in Tesco's.

Piggywaspushed · 10/03/2023 09:58

More women than men - as well as more people form EMs- are now going into medicine. We are already witnessing the slide of medicine as a 'high status career'... sadly. Now it's all about economics, physics, banking and possibly law , although I'm sure the government's 'leftie lawyers' jibes aren't helping to maintain its elite status.

Our very very cleverest students now apply for maths and economics - where it was once medicine, law , history, English , physics.

ArseInTheCoOpWindow · 10/03/2023 09:59

So it would be a pity if a parent reading the thread conclude - okay he can go to the place where everyone with C grades goes and need not bother to work hard for A levels as it won't matter. I think that is untrue

l know someone went to crap uni. He’s a fellow at Oxford now. It’s what you make of things, not which RG you attend. Oxford we’re begging for him. Even though he went to shit town uni.

SquaresandStarlings · 10/03/2023 10:10

Increasingly, blind recruitment means that the name of the university is removed prior to CVS being reviewed anyway.

Wow. That's going to be a game-changer 👏

AgeingDoc · 10/03/2023 10:12

VioletaDelValle · 10/03/2023 07:22

It's just insanity that most mums on this thread think that education is not that important and the uni you go to doesn't matter.
Good job nobody has actually said that then isn't it! 🤷🏼‍♀️

Precisely.
What most people have actually said is that RG Universities are not the only good institutions and that others may be a better fit for some individuals and some excel in particular subject areas. Also that you are not necessarily doomed to a life of misery if you don't graduate in one of a few select subjects from a handful of institutions.
Despite their hallowed educations and a profession in which I assume the interpretation of words is rather important, some posters seem to have problems with quite basic comprehension.
Of course we all know that some Universities are more difficult to get into, some employers favour particular types of people and that factors such as your old school and University can impact upon earnings. What we are disputing is that a)those are universal truths and b)the particular types of employment being held up as the pinnacle of achievement are actually things everyone should aspire to. To be perfectly frank, I'd feel that I had failed miserably as a mother if my children grew up holding some of the judgemental views demonstrated on this thread or wanting to follow certain careers.
As a "mere" doctor who spent her career at the sharp end of the NHS, in some less than salubrious places at times, I've learned a lot of life lessons. Possibly one of the biggest is not to conflate someone's educational attainment/professional status with their intelligence and integrity.

Parker231 · 10/03/2023 10:16

SquaresandStarlings · 10/03/2023 10:10

Increasingly, blind recruitment means that the name of the university is removed prior to CVS being reviewed anyway.

Wow. That's going to be a game-changer 👏

As there has been lots of posts about the legal profession I looked up which use CV blind recruitment - Clifford Chance, MacFarlanes, Mayer Brown and Ropes and Gray. All excellent firms. Very encouraged from a couple of minutes search - hopefully there are more.

RecommendedForYou · 10/03/2023 10:21

I think things are changing. A friend’s daughter has been a true ‘genius’ since she was little. Truly excelling at academics, music, art etc. Winning international writing and science competitions. Lacking people skills though. Did Stem at Cambridge with a first. She tried all the big law firms and had rejection after rejection till she settled at some ‘low level’ firm.

Probably the first ‘failure’ she had ever experienced. Clearly even the City is looking now for skills other than the ability to get an oxbridge degree. This is a good thing. And I say that as a parent of an oxbridge student.

LifeunderMarrs · 10/03/2023 10:52

My BiL and SIL are both regularly involved in recruiting in their roles, and both say that it's a policy now with many companies to consider candidates for decent roles that haven't even been to university at all. Candidates are just viewed more holistically.

RosaBonheur · 10/03/2023 11:00

If it makes people feel better, the UK is still way ahead of France when it comes to this sort of thing.

My husband is coming out of the army and looking for his first civilian job. Everyone I talk to in the UK says, "Has he considered the Big 4? They love to recruit ex military officers."

Lol, no, in France, the Big 4 screen him out automatically because he didn't go to a top business school.

VioletaDelValle · 10/03/2023 11:12

l know someone went to crap uni. He’s a fellow at Oxford now. It’s what you make of things, not which RG you attend. Oxford we’re begging for him. Even though he went to shit town uni.

Exactly.

I went to a mid/low ranking university and I'm now an associate dean at a university that overall is just in the top half of the rankings but in a department that punches well above it's weight and ranks higher than many RG universities and is respected internationally.

Admittedly I don't earn a 6 figure salary (I do okay though!) and some people will turn their noses up at my uni but I consider myself a success and most importantly I'm doing a job I love and that takes me all over the world!

Not bad for someone who went to a 'crap' uni 🤷🏼‍♀️

Piggywaspushed · 10/03/2023 11:12

ArseInTheCoOpWindow · 10/03/2023 09:59

So it would be a pity if a parent reading the thread conclude - okay he can go to the place where everyone with C grades goes and need not bother to work hard for A levels as it won't matter. I think that is untrue

l know someone went to crap uni. He’s a fellow at Oxford now. It’s what you make of things, not which RG you attend. Oxford we’re begging for him. Even though he went to shit town uni.

This guy's story is utterly uplifting

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-64717079

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