Is the whole ‘russel group’ thing just snobbery?

[MrsPBlotto]

DD is 17 and has applied to university this summer. Granted her course is very vocational so perhaps this bias only applies for academic subjects. All but one of the universities she’s applied to are post 1992 and the one uni she has applied to that’s not one is not an RG. I’m not bothered in the slightest as for the field DD wants to go into a degree is a degree and I’m far more concerned that she’s happy at the university she goes to.

However, I’ve seen a lot of posts here and comments from other parents saying that an RG is the best of the best and almost implying russel groups are the only universities worth going to. I’m not sure this is actually true as I know a lot of people who’ve gone to ex poly unis and been far more successful in life than those who’s gone to RG’s (granted that’s anecdotal). And I really don’t understand where this bias comes from that somehow a self proclaimed group of 20 or so universities are somehow the best of the best and any others (especially if post 1992) are not worth the money. Is this just snobbery and people trying to set themselves apart or is there any truth to the idea russel groups are inherently better universities?

Surrey! I wouldn't put that on the same bracket as Bath and Lancaster.Never heard of anyone whose been there!

I know people who have been to the 3.

Lancaster and Surrey for STEM degrees, and Bath for more a more traditional subject.

The dept of education use to call them all plate glass universities e.g. established between 1960 and 1992, though they aren't all the traditional plate glass universities.

Anyway none of their graduates have had a problem getting well-paying jobs.

I believe the PP is from the more northern part of England so less likely to know anyone who's been to Surrey...

It's renowned for its music degrees (has a tonmeister degree), performance, and for business and marketing and psychology.

On a point of order, Bath isn't a more traditional uni - it doesn't offer English, music, history, for example it has an excellent reputation for business, management , social sciences politics, and - of course - sport.

Plate glass unis is indeed what we called them before RG was a thing - it also included Warwick, York, Lancaster, Stirling amongst others. Mainly campus unis.

Bath has extremely high entry requirements, certainly higher than Lancaster, Surrey and much of the Russell Group, in at least a couple of STEM subjects. I am RG but I am a big fan of Bath for my STEM subject

@Piggywaspushed Bath is not exactly in the North.

Incidentally one of the people I know who went to Surrey was originally from the NW, and to Lancaster was originally from the SW.

I didn't say it was! But Surrey has a heavy representation of students from the SE and overseas. Its location and cost makes it less well known amongst young people further North. There are definitely some geographical biases built into universities people have awareness of and therefore talk up, especially outside of the RG, and St Andrews and Bath

I am not slagging anywhere off or sneering. I'll eave that to funnyface if you read her post...

There are one or two posters on here who sneer at people who dare to consider any university outside of the top 10 @Piggywaspushed

Oh, I know!!

My uni is a RG uni but not a particularly posh one. It's the one people went to if they couldn't get into Durham, which they only applied to if they couldn't get into Oxbridge in the first place 🤪 We did have royalty attend our uni so I guess it must be a decent one, but surely it depends on what you're studying? My uni was great for science and medicine, average for everything else. My friend studied English and only had 9 in-person hours a week. I had closer to 9 a day.

If I am thinking of the same one @Monstermoomoo this particualr royal person did rather better at their A levels than most of the royal family members who went to more highly regarded universities. However, the degrees from this university aren't worth the paper they are written on according to one particular poster.

Well, it doesn't begin with an E if it's 'not posh' so I for one am stumped.

I did not know there were RG unis that were also outre! except QMUL

My ds is currently in his second year at a Rg university and is looking for a placement for his year in industry (studying aeronautical engineering). He has Aspergers and is really struggling with getting past first base. The computer tests are not revealing anything particularly bad but he's not being selected for the next stage. He came top overall in his first year exams, plenty of extra curricular related to his subject, top A levels, gcses etc. He's getting very depressed about it and not getting any support from the uni.

Oh, that's a shame :(

Some unis definitely have better careers advice and support than others and I don't think this is anything to do with RG.

I was chatting to a girl yesterday who is at the same RG university I attended and she has an even lower opinion of it than I do. No mental health or student welfare support, no adjustments put in place for her disability. Extremely disappointing. But I suppose those kind of things might not matter to lots of people as much as the prestige, they do to me though.

I am so sorry, @Manthide Some unis are def not very supportive. Can your DS talk to anyone about this?

Surrey’s Tonmeister course (for one) is widely regarded at the best in the world.

iosr.uk/tonmeister/awards.php

Do we have an inkling which unit's offer good support or Pastoral care? King's doesn't oooops 🙀

What sort of things are you looking for? To be honest, an 18yo is an adult and should be able to cope on their own for 13 weeks away from their parents.
Or if not, to defer higher ed until they can cope.

The reality is, a lot of 18yos can't cope without support. A significant proportion of students need support with mental health issues as well as practical stuff like student finance etc. It isn't as straightforward as saying that they should defer until they're ready... some of them will never be ready to do it without support. Are we going to go down the route of saying that students with mental health difficulties etc should be excluded from HE altogether?

In any case, students often start off at uni absolutely fine, but all sorts of stuff happens to them while they're there that causes them to need support - issues with housemates, stress over coursework, sexual assault etc.

Perhaps if the NHS and other statutory services could actually provide the level of support that people need, there would be no need for universities to invest in pastoral care, but until that happens, it is important. And any parent who is convinced that their child will definitely never need such support is a fool in my view.

My dd will be going off to uni with excellent mental health and bags of confidence and independence, but I absolutely want to know that there will be support for her if something goes wrong. Having previously worked in HE, I have seen what sometimes happens.

Excellent post @MrsBennetsPoorNerves. I couldn't agree with you more. Even the most confident students have wobbles now and then.

Maybe those posters advocating that people with mental health issues or with some kind of neurodiversity are the sort of people who tell them to "pull themselves together"

To be honest when I went to university in 1984 most of us were pretty independent and whilst university even back then wasn't for everyone I don't recall anything more major than slight homesickness. The lack of en suites, mobile phones, the internet meant we had to mix. The ones going today have been confined due to covid and are more likely to sit in their room on the Internet not socialising. My ds is 19 and in his second year and he chose his university because it is near dd1's home. He only sees them about every 10 days to 2 weeks but I'm happy she is there for him.

I think it was developed to allow people who never got into Oxford or Cambridge to make themselves feel better that they are part of a wider, exclusive group including those two universities. It is a load of bollocks and the prestige/attainment levels of graduates within that group varies too widely for it to be meaningful.

I am not sure if it exists outside MN as something which matters, unless you are specifically benefitting from the opportunities which it creates. I know that many prestigious workplaces now interview blind including DH's one as a way of ignoring this absurd grouping and giving others a chance. Ironically, this usually ends up in the Oxford and Cambridge students being recruited anyway but the few non-RG ones making it through as well makes it all worthwhile.

@Manthide I think widening particiaption means that there are far more students who are considering going or actually going to university who wouldn't have in the 1980s. You can't compare now vs the 1980s.

There are far more ND students, students woth some kind of disability and students at university with mental health issues at university because they can go, and because there is the support for them.

Young people weren't more resilient then. The less resilient just didn't go.

I don't know if his rg university has good support generally but I feel they are not supporting ds to find a placement for his year in industry. I realise they expect students to find their own and he has tried but is not getting past the first base. I'm not just saying it as his mum but he's an exceptional student, came top overall in his first year exams, plays sport, is in lots of societies but he is ND and must not be putting the correct answers for the computer based interviews. He tells me there is no one to talk to about it which may or may not be true but ds certainly believes it. He is thinking of foregoing it and just carrying on with his degree but I know he was really looking forward to it.

You must work at the university I attended!