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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Is the whole ‘russel group’ thing just snobbery?

624 replies

MrsPBlotto · 22/02/2023 15:17

DD is 17 and has applied to university this summer. Granted her course is very vocational so perhaps this bias only applies for academic subjects. All but one of the universities she’s applied to are post 1992 and the one uni she has applied to that’s not one is not an RG. I’m not bothered in the slightest as for the field DD wants to go into a degree is a degree and I’m far more concerned that she’s happy at the university she goes to.

However, I’ve seen a lot of posts here and comments from other parents saying that an RG is the best of the best and almost implying russel groups are the only universities worth going to. I’m not sure this is actually true as I know a lot of people who’ve gone to ex poly unis and been far more successful in life than those who’s gone to RG’s (granted that’s anecdotal). And I really don’t understand where this bias comes from that somehow a self proclaimed group of 20 or so universities are somehow the best of the best and any others (especially if post 1992) are not worth the money. Is this just snobbery and people trying to set themselves apart or is there any truth to the idea russel groups are inherently better universities?

OP posts:
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ArseInTheCoOpWindow · 27/02/2023 15:40

And it's not knitting, it's a fairly mainstream subject. People need to do their homework and look at exactly what is on offer, not make broad assumptions. There's more than one road to Rome, and lots of other wonderful destinations besides Rome anyway!

l used to be a knitwear designer. Knitting is very complex and uses lots of maths. It’s taught now as part of a stem subject. When knitting g machines first arrived in the Industrial Revolution it needed an engineer to work them. Weaving is even more complex. Loads of maths.

AgeingDoc · 27/02/2023 16:15

ArseInTheCoOpWindow · 27/02/2023 15:40

And it's not knitting, it's a fairly mainstream subject. People need to do their homework and look at exactly what is on offer, not make broad assumptions. There's more than one road to Rome, and lots of other wonderful destinations besides Rome anyway!

l used to be a knitwear designer. Knitting is very complex and uses lots of maths. It’s taught now as part of a stem subject. When knitting g machines first arrived in the Industrial Revolution it needed an engineer to work them. Weaving is even more complex. Loads of maths.

I can imagine. It was a response to a disparaging remark by a previous poster.

3WildOnes · 27/02/2023 16:59

2crossedout1 · 22/02/2023 19:41

I teach at a post 92 university. It's much easier to get a good degree (first or 2:1) at my university than at the top unis (whether that's Russell Group or other universities of similar reputation), simply because if we made it equally difficult then hardly any students would get a good degree. Employers know this.

This is my experience too. I studied at a top 10 uni and was getting a mix of 2.1s & 2.2s (but mostly 2.2s)in exams and essays. When i studied at a university towards the bottom of the league tables I was often getting 1sts in my essays and assessments. I studied for my masters at a uni lower in the league tables too and found my bsc for the top ten uni harder.

MinceandMash · 27/02/2023 17:27

Neither St Andrews or Loughborough are RG uni’s. One is ranked second in the U.K behind Oxford and the other is considered gold standard for sport and was attended by many Team GB athletes including Seb Coe and Paula Radcliffe.

Its all a load of bollocks IMO and yes it’s down to snobbery

Dobby123456 · 27/02/2023 17:59

ArseInTheCoOpWindow · 27/02/2023 15:40

And it's not knitting, it's a fairly mainstream subject. People need to do their homework and look at exactly what is on offer, not make broad assumptions. There's more than one road to Rome, and lots of other wonderful destinations besides Rome anyway!

l used to be a knitwear designer. Knitting is very complex and uses lots of maths. It’s taught now as part of a stem subject. When knitting g machines first arrived in the Industrial Revolution it needed an engineer to work them. Weaving is even more complex. Loads of maths.

The first knotting guilds excluded women. Only men could train yo do such skilled work!

GasPanic · 27/02/2023 18:12

MinceandMash · 27/02/2023 17:27

Neither St Andrews or Loughborough are RG uni’s. One is ranked second in the U.K behind Oxford and the other is considered gold standard for sport and was attended by many Team GB athletes including Seb Coe and Paula Radcliffe.

Its all a load of bollocks IMO and yes it’s down to snobbery

I think some people struggle with the concept of "on average".

On average RG universities are simply better than non RG universities and amongst many people and employers their degrees are more highly regarded. That's not to say there aren't some universities outside of RG that are outstanding, and also some outstanding candidates that go to those universities, simply that the average RG university is better than a non RG average one.

I struggle a little as to how people don't understand this concept. Most people I would think agree that Oxford and Cambridge are probably the best universites in the UK (again maybe not for absolutely everything, but on average) and have the best reputations and tend to sit apart from everywhere else. So it shouldn't stretch the imagination too much to imagine that there could exist a tier below them, and further tiers below that.

ArseInTheCoOpWindow · 27/02/2023 18:22

Dobby123456 · 27/02/2023 17:59

The first knotting guilds excluded women. Only men could train yo do such skilled work!

But because it’s a craft it gets sneered at!

Newnamenewme23 · 27/02/2023 18:26

Dobby123456 · 27/02/2023 17:59

The first knotting guilds excluded women. Only men could train yo do such skilled work!

Same as competing was initially seen as a woman’s job, akin to a secretarial role.

funny now how computing is seen as a male aptitude. Stereotypes change quickly.

Eleganz · 27/02/2023 18:40

GasPanic · 27/02/2023 18:12

I think some people struggle with the concept of "on average".

On average RG universities are simply better than non RG universities and amongst many people and employers their degrees are more highly regarded. That's not to say there aren't some universities outside of RG that are outstanding, and also some outstanding candidates that go to those universities, simply that the average RG university is better than a non RG average one.

I struggle a little as to how people don't understand this concept. Most people I would think agree that Oxford and Cambridge are probably the best universites in the UK (again maybe not for absolutely everything, but on average) and have the best reputations and tend to sit apart from everywhere else. So it shouldn't stretch the imagination too much to imagine that there could exist a tier below them, and further tiers below that.

It starts and stops with their reputation amongst some employers in traditionally desirable lines of work (finance, corporate law for example) and that is it really.

The idea of "on average better" has really no actual meaning when talking about something as big and complex as a university (its schools/departments, degree subjects, academics and students).

WombatChocolate · 27/02/2023 18:54

GasPanic · 27/02/2023 18:12

I think some people struggle with the concept of "on average".

On average RG universities are simply better than non RG universities and amongst many people and employers their degrees are more highly regarded. That's not to say there aren't some universities outside of RG that are outstanding, and also some outstanding candidates that go to those universities, simply that the average RG university is better than a non RG average one.

I struggle a little as to how people don't understand this concept. Most people I would think agree that Oxford and Cambridge are probably the best universites in the UK (again maybe not for absolutely everything, but on average) and have the best reputations and tend to sit apart from everywhere else. So it shouldn't stretch the imagination too much to imagine that there could exist a tier below them, and further tiers below that.

I agree with GasPanic.

And we are talking academically for people going to do undergraduate degrees. No-one is saying that people who go to other universities can’t or won’t be as successful (whatever that means) in later life.

We all know that people with the highest grades at school and who have the best degrees from the most prestigious universities don’t always go onto have high flying careers. We also know that people from lots of different educational backgrounds can and do have very successful careers and things other than academic achievement are really important in that. However, we also know that in lots of very competitive fields, there are lots of Oxbridge graduates and people who’ve attended certain types of school. That’s why these issues keep coming up in the press all the time and broadening access is (rightly) a key focus.

There are countless different degrees and lots of different employers. In many jobs, people enter with a wide range of degrees. Most employers will not be experts in exactly which universities are top or in the higher rankings for each subject. So rightly or wrongly, RG is quite simply a known. Employers expect (rightly or wrongly) that graduates starting out with a degree from a RG university has a strong academic record. It’s as basic as that. And when sifting in the initial stages, lots of big employers might use that info, as well as some other basic metrics to reduce the pool of candidates.

And yes, that impact doesn’t last for very long, because quickly those graduates have experience in the workplace and when they apply for their next job, that experience will count for more. In some jobs, having trained at a particular prestigious firm, or having been to a prestigious university will still carry some weight, even if it’s not the most important thing.

In the end, people want to distinguish themselves from others. They want to gain an advantage and mark themselves out as different. And universities need to distinguish between candidates and employers need to distinguish too. Often, very blunt measures are used and no doubt, because if this, good candidates get missed. But if hundreds apply, it’s not going to be possible to interview all of them to find out all of their nuances.

If university attended doesn’t make any difference, why is it that selective schools work so hard and parents and kids are so keen for their kids to attend certain universities? If it doesn’t make any difference, why is broadening access so important, especially to those more difficult to get into universities? People know that some universities are a better or more likely gateway to further opportunities and want to have those opportunities for themselves, or their kids, or for groups that haven’t previously had them. And that’s not to say that there aren’t other really good universities that are equal or sometimes better. But knowing all the details is beyond most people, and they’d like to think themselves or their kid or the group they are trying to broaden access for, will have been somewhere that is recognised, which is why having a particular ‘tier’ is considered useful, even if it’s not always reflective of the best in all subjects. As GasPanic said, it’s an average. Averages don’t reflect all nuances.

I fully understand why people get annoyed about the RG label. Often it’s people who went to other really good and equal universities, who feel the lack of RG label is unfair, wrong and disadvantages them or suggests their degree is lesser. And often as we get older and experience counts for more and more, it feels daft and irrelevant as university becomes further behind us. All rankings and putting into league tables are debatable and change over time, but I suppose that people like simple groupings that help them benchmark and measure, even if it’s not always accurate or up to date.

Keepfocused · 27/02/2023 18:56

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Parker231 · 27/02/2023 18:58

Eleganz · 27/02/2023 18:40

It starts and stops with their reputation amongst some employers in traditionally desirable lines of work (finance, corporate law for example) and that is it really.

The idea of "on average better" has really no actual meaning when talking about something as big and complex as a university (its schools/departments, degree subjects, academics and students).

Better at what? Teach how to pass exams or how to be a useful proficient employee? On average being better no longer stands with more organisations using CV blind recruitment.

RecommendedForYou · 27/02/2023 18:59

Poor old Cromer.

Piggywaspushed · 27/02/2023 19:01

Cromer's relatively posh too. Almost in the RG of East Anglia resorts.

Clymene · 27/02/2023 19:04

If university attended doesn’t make any difference, why is it that selective schools work so hard and parents and kids are so keen for their kids to attend certain universities?

I have no idea @WombatChocolate

You've been told repeatedly that most big global businesses don't care and that law is pretty much the only profession that does.

A good education is really worth it in and of itself. That's what the point of it should be. Not to help you climb up the greasy pole and leapfrog children from less privileged backgrounds. That's essentially what you're arguing.

RecommendedForYou · 27/02/2023 19:14

The concept of ‘best’ is interesting.

Hardest to get into?
Internationally renowned?
Most employable?
Most contact hours?
Best pastoral care?
Best at teaching young people life skills?
Best at encouraging diversity?
Best to show off about on MN?

I have kids at RG and Oxbridge and friends with kids all over the place. There is shit and good teaching everywhere. Variable pastoral care. I reckon the best outcome is a university that can hang on to its students till the end, help them keep good mental health and ensure the bright ones leave with a 2/1 or a first and that as many as possible leaving are able to pursue the career/studies they want.

There is most definitely an ‘Emperor’s New Clothes’ aspect to places like Oxbridge. ‘We know everyone thinks we are wonderful so don’t need to bother giving you quality teaching at the level you need’.

I do predict that employers will become increasingly blind. And that even the City will start to try and balance out its Oxbridge intake with other institutions.

There are probably too many universities and the bottom quarter maybe could be culled. But to just have a handful of top universities is a bit silly.

Someone earlier said that the subjectively ‘top’ universities are ones that private school kids seem to apply to. I would be inclined to agree, whilst adding private schools kids ‘from the south’.

I am quite cynical about it all really. My kids have followed the well-trodden path of privilege but I have a feeling that things will change and become more inclusive. There are lots of very bright kids around. When I see the advantages my kids have had, with a stable home environment, loving childhood, money, academic parents and encouragement, I am all in favour of contextual offers and increasing the pool of students at elite universities. Interesting times ahead.

RecommendedForYou · 27/02/2023 19:15

Piggywaspushed · 27/02/2023 19:01

Cromer's relatively posh too. Almost in the RG of East Anglia resorts.

I think I have been there. Is there a lifeboat museum on a pier?

Piggywaspushed · 27/02/2023 19:24

Believe so! And Cromer crabs.

RampantIvy · 27/02/2023 19:28

Neither St Andrews or Loughborough are RG uni’s. One is ranked second in the U.K behind Oxford and the other is considered gold standard for sport and was attended by many Team GB athletes including Seb Coe and Paula Radcliffe.

@MinceandMash Several posters have already pointed out that Bath, Lancaster, Koughborough and St Andrews are included in the term RG+, so I think we can establish that the term RG includes these high ranking universities.

Piggywaspushed · 27/02/2023 19:31

A girl in my form was banging on about RG last week. I told her Bath and St Andrews weren't RG. She had no clue. I think they parrot out the term with little to no knowledge of what it includes and excludes.

Yolo12345 · 27/02/2023 19:59

It's nonsense - ignore the branding

Parker231 · 01/03/2023 11:23

Thinking back to when DT’s applied. We suggested to them the following:

what are the course options/modules?

is the Uni somewhere you want to live for three years (important to me that they would be happy wherever they went). DD turned down a place at St Andrews as she thought it was too remote and she likes to party!

will the course help your career aspirations?

one from me - what was the student care like/were students happy and looked after

DS had very strong ideas about the course he wanted and his career path. DD was easier to please so needed pushing to check she really wanted a particular course/degree.

haze2003purple · 02/03/2023 00:45

lol me neither

Tabitha2721 · 02/03/2023 01:02

I went to a Russel group uni, and honestly didn’t realise until I read this post and googled it 😆 my career has nothing to do with my degree and in all honesty, I’m not sure it helped me practically and has only helped me get my foot an inch inside the door. I did work full time whilst at uni though to support myself, so it’s probably not comparable to a lot of peoples experience. Anyway, I don’t think it’s helped to advance my career in any way - no recruiter has ever asked about my degree and they’ve certainly not favoured me because of the one I went to. I would say though - choose something you love and at a university that has a good reputation for that specific course/field. Going to another university would have been useless to me as the one I went to was the only one that specialised in my chosen topic - just so happened to be a RG one.

NicolaSturGONE · 02/03/2023 07:58

I remember as a student looking at Glasgow, Strathclyde, Edinburgh universities. This was the late 90s. I found Glasgow to be extremely snobby and not feeling like I would fit in. Edinburgh was too far away. Strathclyde seemed more 'me'.

Well I hated my time at Strathclyde. I did not get the grade I wanted and went back to do a postgrad at another poly tech and had a better experience.

I never knew anything about RG universities but it explains the feeling I got of 'not fitting in'. However, looking back, I think I could have had a better teaching experience. I even worked in Glasgow uni for a while. Really nice bunch of staff there - except in the business school, that has a bad reputation - anyone considering business at Glasgow or History at Strathclyde - think again.