Mocking Christianity

[Ihatepcos]

I am so sick of people thinking it's okay to ridicule Catholicism and Christianity. This is especially apparent on Mumsnet. Every time there's a thread about religion I can't even read the replies because they're so awful.

The same doesn't seem to apply to the Muslim, Jewish, Hindu faiths etc.

If you don't believe in God that is your choice. But purposely mocking someone's faith and calling it a load of bullshit (and worse) is just not acceptable. So many people turn to faith to help them through extremely tough times in life and you are mocking the only thing that is keeping them going.

@whereaw I am 100% for people finding faith and turning their lives around. I co-lead a support group for relatives and loved ones of addicts, and some of the people who are now long term in recovery have been helped immensely by finding faith. I think that's wonderful. The lady who leads alongside me is a committed Christian, and we meet in a church.

But I don't want the laws I live by to be made from a religious perspective. I have no time for the 'Christianity is the bedrock of our society' nonsense. All the moral principles that we consider to be good and worthwhile are things that are common to all religions - and to people of no religion. They are necessary for the survival of society. By all means let them guide lawmaking. But when it comes to things like marriage equality/LGBT rights, abortion, anti discrimination, disability rights etc. religion needs to step back.

@Xenia

The obvious difference between nurses and politicians is that politicians have the power to change policy and laws.

I don't want people who are against gay marriage and abortion in a position of power. Especially not when based on made up nonsense

@Botw1 exactly this. And of course the politicians within the SNP know that these attitudes do not play well with the majority of their voters, so they are not going to support someone as leader who is going to cost them votes.

Well said. Exactly how I feel.

I suspect people are more comfortable mocking their own culture rather than someone elses, which could come off as racist.

I generally wouldn't mock religious belief, though as a pagan, many religious people wouldn't return the favour, but I don't expect them to or care what they think about my beliefs as long as they're not actually discriminating against me.

What are Christian values exactly? I have always wanted to know.

But you're not mocking orgnaised religion with this comment, nor are you mockiung any RC strictures that you were brought up in you are having a very pointed and not particaurly funny dig at ordinary individuals: "people have hilariously attached their sense of self worth to".

If you are not religious then you don't understand the range of personal motivations and thought proscesses of those that are. Further you are assuming lots of things about the psychology of religious people and finding other people's ways of coping with life 'hilarious'. That's not funny, it is not satire, it is not showing up misrule or abuse of power that can happen in organised religion - it is in fact you just sticking your tongue out in some kind kind of childish anonymous glee that having left the church you can be rude to people about it. Very weird.

This is a free country and blasphomy is fine though it is sometimes bad manners - what you said is not blasphomous - it is just nasty about other people - people you don't know.

No religion should be free from scrutiny and nothing should be out the reach of genuine satire but you're just rude for the sake of it. Perhaps you need to have a professional talk with someone - you seem very upset and full of bile from your religious background (and yes, being brought up in overly religious housholds can do that) - you need to talk through with someone your anger with the hierarchies of organised religion and perhaps think twice before taking it out on others.

The last paragraph is pretty disingenuous when it comes to Kate Forbes because the issue here isn't what she believes, or where she worships, but how she would have voted on the issue as an MSP.

Forbes's statement of how she would have behaved politically in the past is 100% relevant to being considered as part of her suitability for the political job she's going for. It's not lack of tolerance for her beliefs, or where she worships. It's about people in a political system saying they don't want to be led my someone who has particular political, not personal, views.

There is a big difference between that approach - this is my belief and it will inform the way I do my job as a politician (and one logically assumes as party leader, the job she is going for) and what you might call the Tim Farron approach - this is my belief but it's my personal belief and it won't affect how I represent my constituents or party members and I won't try to impose my religious beliefs on those who don't share them through public policy.

The latter approach wasn't necessarily particularly successful for Farron (though hard to unpick from all the Lib Dems' other problems at the time) but trying to conflate that approach with Forbes's recent statements on how she would have behaved politically, not personally, on the question of gay marriage does a disservice to the former and undermines politicians who are trying to take that approach.

It amazes me that people can't grasp why Christianity is fair game in the UK but Islam, Judaism etc aren't.

I mock christianity because I'm an ex evangelical Christian and so I know about it. Most British adults will have grown up within some degree of Christianity - Christian festivals, weddings and funerals as a minimum, and probably hymns in school. If unlucky church on Sundays.

I don't know much about Islam or other world religions so any joke I would make would be from a place of ignorance and not very funny. I don't want to make ignorant jokes based on stereotypes, thanks.

I don't think Christianity is a force for evil fyi, it can provide community and charity. But its a human institution with some glaringly human flaws.

For the record I am 100% comfortable with discriminating against politicians who don't support the policy of equal marriage, or any other policies I care deeply about.

I express this discrimination by not voting for them, and sometimes by campaigning against them on that issue and for politicians with whom I align politically.

Can you ever separate religion from politics?

China is the best example... I suppose?

@whereaw of course you can, don't be silly. And please don't do the 'Oh look at China, atheist regimes are soooo awful' because it's a cheap trope.

If you can accept that it is possible to have good morals and ethics without having a faith (and if you cannot then you are somewhat intellectually challenged) then it becomes clear how you can legislate politically without bringing deities in it. Good moral values that underpin a society's legal system are those which are, as I have said previously, common to all faiths and none. Of course individual politicians can and do have religious faith - but they need to leave it at the door of the legislative chamber. This is why I utterly respect Angela Merkel and the way she legislated for marriage equality in Germany. And yes, I suspect that her stance opposing it did cost her votes in terms of people voting for other parties, but that's completely valid.

I am perfectly happy to respect Kate Forbes' rights to her personal beliefs, but it is equally valid for her political peers to withdraw support for her leadership bid because they disagree with her on something that is key to their own values.

Can you ever separate religion from politics?
China is the best example... I suppose?

lazy thinking indeed. Look much closer to home: France.

Constitutionally.. America is secular

Are you seriously suggesting a poster needs "professional help" for thinking your beliefs are silly? The gaslighting arrogance is quite impressive.

You are the one that sounds upset, do you need a doctor for that as well?

@whereaw I think we all know how meaningless America's Constitutional secularity really is. Just because you say you're secular that doesn't mean you are.

And conversely, just because you don't explicitly say you're secular, that doesn't mean you're not. I'm Dutch. The Dutch Parliament has representation from several Christian based parties, ranging from the broadly mainstream to the very very fundamentalist. Nevertheless the Netherlands are a very secular country, and its laws reflect that.

@pointythings that's the point I was trying to make. Politics reflects people. I honestly wanted to ask if/how you can ever truly separate the two?
In France you still have political parties which are religious. You could ban these, but how can we know if a politicians actions are driven by religious values or not? Unless they are honest about it, of course.

This is a really good book to start exploring it

www.amazon.co.uk/Western-Esoteric-Traditions-Historical-Introduction/dp/0195320999/ref=asc_df_0195320999/?tag=googshopuk-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=310812942933&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=16704688840894574589&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9045329&hvtargid=pla-441732101435&psc=1&th=1&psc=1

@OMG12 thank you! Added to my wish list

I think its about respect for other people and their beliefs. I don't expect people to disrespect my feelings about certain things, so I don't go around disrespecting others. I've worked in a large number of different countries and cultures, and can say with certainty that going around disrespecting peoples views on things like religion is not likely to make you many friends. That doesn't mean you have to agree, but does mean that you should probably end the discussion politely and firmly if it is likely to lead to something you believe is contentious or feel strongly about. Most people usually get the message and are in agreement.

I think religion helps a lot of people order their lives and provides a moral framework for them to live to. It also helps comfort them at difficult times. These are the good things about religion. Of course there are also bad things, sometimes dogma, intolerance and discrimination, but this is true of most things, there are positive and negative aspects to them.

You should respect other peoples views and lifestyles and in turn they should respect yours. I'm pretty sure a lot of people lving in politically/religiously contentious places are more than capable of finding their own way as regards what sort of society they want to live in without any input from me - not least because it's unlikely I understand the complexities of their society and why it is the way it is.

@whereaw I absolutely think you can separate religion from politics - you do it by making laws that are based on common moral and ethical principles which are shared by the whole of a society. PR works better for this than a FPTP system where members of Parliament are whipped to vote a certain way (I consider this wildly undemocratic), but it can be done. Any law proposed that breaches those principles won't be voted through. For example the Christen Unie in the Netherlands could bring forward proposed legislation banning abortion, but it would fail. And they know it. Politics is ultimately a collective thing, not an individual one.

You are entitled to believe whatever you like OP, that is your right, however I am equally entitled to absolutely piss myself laughing at the ridiculousness and absurdity of your beliefs too, irrespective of which cult or superstition you follow.

I hope that clears it up.

"Christian values" do not belong to Christians.

They are values, christians or indeed anyone else do not have the right to lay claim to them.

The problem for me is not people mocking elements of Christianity so much as the disporportionate mocking of it compared to other religions. It reminds me of Alan Partridge rebuking his co-host for making a joke about Islam on the radio:

"NEVER make fun of Muslims. Only ever make jokes about Christians, and Jews a little bit."

The argument some people put forward that "they don't know enough about other religions to mock them" doesn't really work. Mocking religions relies on ignorance, not knowledge. The less I know about a religion - eg "shintoism" - the easier it is to make fun of it, because without knowing what they do or believe I can make assumptions.

Can I just say that Judaism, Sikhism, Islam, Buddhism,Hinduism and any other superstitious horseshit religion can all fuck off as well as Christianity.

Does that redress the balance?