Sex and relationships have become problems

[JoonT]

I'm probably talking nonsense, but it occurred to me today that the young increasingly see relationships as a problem. I'm 46 now, and the young seem much more cynical and wary than when I was a teen. It's almost as if relationships, and even sex, are traps (or even dangers), rather than things to rush towards and enjoy. Obviously young people still have sex, still marry, still form relationships, still have kids, and so on. But the statistics kind of back me up. Statistically, young people are having far less sex. They are also having fewer babies. And there are record numbers of young women who're single and 'not looking'. It really puzzles me. I'm not passing judgement btw. Just curious.

What's going on (assuming I'm not talking rubbish)? My sense is that young people see more opportunities. They want to travel, pursue a career, own property, etc, and see relationships as a kind of distraction. Or is it to do with feminism, plus a counter-reaction from men – I mean hatred and rage at female self-assertion (both sexes more at war than ever)? Is it that this generation have been raised by parents who are more vocal about how hard it is to raise kids, how hard relationships are? Is it the internet? A lot of men now seem to satisfy their sexual needs with porn. Plus, of course, it has made infidelity much easier.

so I get what your saying I’m not entirely sure how I personally feel about it but I will say: My mother and her friends have put up with so much fuckin shit from their husbands that me and my friend would never, ever put up with. I think we’re a lot more ‘picky’ now and it is a very, very good thing

Friends I do have more than one I promise!!

Just my opinion from a female perspective-With sex being increasingly pornified, expectation of what used to be unusual is now the norm- anal/ choking/ rimming all being considered norm now, whereas they were extreme in the 80s/90s. Revenge porn, and expectation of media based sex (nudes etc) would make me very wary and have all led to my warning my daughters rather gravely of the risks they face. The rise of incel and Tate types, adds to the problem.

I think it's yes and no. Both our daughters are married and settled. Some of their friends are some aren't. I think many are more focused on careers now. It's great for women as they can have children later and don't even need the man. Last time I spoke with one of the single make friends about his status (nosey old mum figure) he'd had a couple of dates via OLD, one was like a job interview and the other started of badly. When I asked what he planned he'd decided with a couple of friends to get together and hire bikes and do route66, I want to go, not sure they want an old biddy with them.

Si basically I tend to think that there are a lot who still want the traditional happy family life and lots who don't.

I read a statistic last week that 20% of women between the ages of 35 and 64 are too shy to tell their partners what they want. I realise this thread is about younger people but just thought id throw it in . Im 49 and my generation had More magazine when we were young with their Position of the Fortnight. So i was quite surprised but if you flip it the other way 80% of women arent too shy to say what they want.

What i really dont like is this expectation that women should shave off their pubic hair.

I watched Valentine First Dates last week and a 50 year old dater said he liked the fake look Botox fillers etc.

Expectations are too high and women are fed up with it both young and older

Women having equal rights has not been a trend. It's very new. There is currently a huge backlash, which I suppose is to be expected.

Who knows how it will pan out in the medium term. Long term, hopefully women will gain equal rights eventually and not be regarded as support humans and sex objects. Fingers crossed.

I'm 30, not really interested in sex or a relationship. However, I honestly think I'm all shagged out, I was shagging constantly from 15 to 25 and during that period I had three really awful, toxic, heartbreaking relationships.

I'm now just over it, I am self sufficient, have my little girl, a lovely home, great friends, educated, good job. I really just don't see the need for a man, they've only ever caused me hassle. I can masturbate and if I was really in need of a fuck then I'd get on tinder or go out.

I'm genuinely happy alone HOWEVER, I think I feel this way due to already having a child, I think I would be much more eager to meet a man if I hadn't had a child, as it's something I've always known I've wanted and I also think having a decent friendship group helps, I get a lot of my emotional needs met by my friends and my phone is always buzzing, I always have someone to join me for a walk/coffee/dinner/night out/weekend away etc. I suppose I might feel differently if things were different so I guess I'm lucky.

Agreed with PP that young women are less likely to put up with stuff that their mothers and grandmothers might not have known they didn't have to.

The cost of buying homes is high and wages aren't great so people are (although this is 100% anecdotal based on what I've seen in friends!) settling down later because they're living at home, moving around for jobs, etc longer - harder to settle down and get in a relationship when you're living with your mum and dad. And because they're expecting to buy a home etc later, they're less focused on finding a partner to 'settle down' with? In my friendship group, those who are married/in longterm relationships are the ones who stayed in our low COL hometown where houses are £150k on average. Far more of the ones who moved to Manchester or London are still single or not in serious relationships: maybe a reflection on them moving for jobs = more career focused? Or maybe because many of them live in shared housing and it's less permanent and the idea of finding a permanent partner seems less relevant. Also, there's MUCH more awareness of abusive/borderline abusive behaviour in relationships now - which is good, and absolutely should be the case, but as a young person being able to read about the prevalence of gaslighting and emotional abuse and lovebombing etc etc everywhere probably puts you off. Lots and lots of people have not-that-healthy relationships - some of the threads here feature comments people drop SO casually that make my hair stand on end - and if you're a young person raised in this very therapised online space where you're hyperaware of all the ways people are not that good to each other, I think it makes relationships seem much less appealing.

Sex - I don't know but I wonder if it's the fact that a lot of adults (1 in 8 adults in the UK according to the Telegraph) are taking antidepressants which can kill your sex drive??

Have you ever tried to tell a man what you want? Lots cannot be arsed, they don't care. They might try for about 5 seconds, then give up.

I think you're probably right and honestly I think it's a good thing.

For my generation (born early 70s), so much emphasis was put on getting into a "relationship" when we were teens. They were odd concepts which were ill-defined but almost always totally on the boy's terms, you never knew exactly where you stood as a "girlfriend" and it was usually pretty unsatisfying. It was theoretically taking its cue from girls' magazines and the American concept of boys and girls "dating" but in my neck of the woods far less formal and far less satisfying. In a best case scenario you dated someone nice for a bit but more often than not it was just a boy having dibs on the right to have sex with you when he fancied and having few other obligations outside of that. Leaving you with a constant sense of having been a bit stuffed by the whole thing and blaming yourself for not being prettier, more biddable or whatever.

I think notionally we had some idea that this was preparation for more settled LTRs and marriage but there was very little guidance from parents (certainly not from mine) about what a "good relationship" looked like and what the boundaries should have been. By the time I had reached my 20s things hadn't improved much.

So consequently I put up with tons of very unsatisfactory "relationships" for years and didn't really have a clear sense of what I wanted, let alone a feeling of being able to express what I wanted.

Nowadays you have the added toxicity of rampant porn and social media with its emphasis on looks and narcissism in the mix. Building any kind of relationship in this world must be daunting.

And anyway marriage isn't the big draw it was. Women can and should be financially independent so the impetus on keeping in boys' good books and being attractive is far less central than it was in the days when it was all a big buildup to catching and keeping an eligible man.

I think young people probably take a look at that and think "no thanks... I'll go without."And I can't say I blame them.

YY @Calistan I thought the same thing while reading the article and afterwards. Most men wouldnt be arsed and the women know that so dont bother

I’m always surprised at how many young people still do follow the conventional path, even though societal norms are so much looser these days, rather than the number that don’t.

The ones who do listen and are good at sex are very likely to be promiscuous and/or cheaters. Can't fucking win, unless you are happy to fuck lots of men, and expect nothing from them.

I don't want to put up with many of the expectations that men want, personally!
I am now in a relationship with a lovely man and I'm very happy. But I was also happy being single and gaining independence and travelling (and FYI.... travelling did not mean a lack of sex ;)

I believe it to be multifaceted in that women are now much more highly educated these days and therefore they’re unwilling to settle and put up with behaviors that women of previous gender have previously put up with.
In addition women are now on the whole working full time focusing on building careers and ensuring they’re able to pay their way in a relationship. Previously women would remain in the home but in the current financial climate many households cannot afford for one person not to work. This in turn means men are needing to pick up their share of the household chores and other life work. Many men sadly don’t see it as their responsibility which leaves the woman doing 3 full time jobs essentially (work, life/home based jobs and raising children). A woman who is already working full time and paying for herself need not burden herself further.
Lastly, the implementation of social media leaves both men and women to always be hunting for a better option. Previously you may have been exposed to the people who live locally to you and you made do and were happy, now there is an entire world of people at your fingertips! This means far heavier competition and much more likelihood of infidelity in relationships. Not to mention the me too movement which brought to light the sheer volume of harassment women worldwide put up with. It’s no wonder young women struggle to trust many men.

I was 21 when i started telling people i didnt want children Im 49 now and have stuck by that but some of the reactions i got were quite nasty. I didnt realise the choice i made was such a political one until i joined Mumsnet at 38 and started posting on the boards here

hausmaus makes two very interesting points. I agree about therapy-heavy online spaces. Young women are so much more aware of toxic and abusive behaviour. And that doesn't just mean physical/sexual abuse. They're also more aware of psychological abuse – how men control women, gaslight them, break their self-esteem (so they'll never leave), etc. Not only are women more aware of all this, they now have labels. And half the battle is being able to define such things. Their mothers and grandmothers didn't have these labels, and so hardly knew what was happening to them.

I also agree about anti-depressants destroying people's sex drives. And it isn't just anti-depressants. Plenty other prescription drugs do the same.

I'm sure porn plays a massive part in the lack of sex. A lot of young men channel all their sexual energy into porn. Real women then fail to live up to the fantasies. I can't see this getting any better. Next thing will be Virtual Reality porn, where a man can actually touch and smell the porn stars. Combine that with a fleshlight, and it's game over.

Hi. Join us for tomorrow’s bookgroup.
(not having read the book is no reason not to join in)
Tuesday 21 February 2023: Sex Dolls, Robots and Woman Hating. The Case for Resistance by Caitlin Roper
We are a radical feminist women only group who meet every third Tuesday of the month 7.00 p.m. Join us on facebook or MeetUps We meet via zoom. www.facebook.com/groups/1602858270013933/

Looking at this from my 24 year old sons angle. Lovely lad, clever, fun, hard working , not that tall and could do with losing a couple of stone. Has a lovely flat he rents with one other in lovely part of London. Women just don't tend to go for him- he's kind of 'too nice' but not really a looker but would I think make an excellent partner. Loves kids and dogs. He also only likes really intelligent girls with plenty to discuss- so until he meets one , he isn't bothering- got rid of Tinder etc. he isn't interested in the female version of a cocklodger( they are about apparently) . He admits that he would rather watch porn than have unsatisfactory relationships and says that a lot of young women are drama llamas who can't cope with life being a bit dull at times. So whilst we women are finding men a bit wanting, it's probable some young men are finding plenty of young women a bit wanting too. In the past I think we kind of accepted 'this is our lot' (from both sexes) and people no longer are doing so.

I teach young adults and I think it's two things:

A lot of young women have higher standards now and aren't willing to put with the shit that my generation (GenX) did. Which honestly makes me happy.

But also, there is a lot of pessimism about the state of the world. They don't expect to make good salaries, buy a house, have kids. Some of them say, what's the point anyway, the planet is going to die in a couple decades.

Also there are so many more outlets for young people today, so many interesting things they can get into easily. People aren't drifting into relationships because they're bored so much.

I think there’s been a positive increase in recognition of the importance and significance of relationships other than partner relationships over the past twenty years or so. Changing lifestyles and socioeconomics, including greater numbers of young people leaving home at an early age to go to university, and increasing house prices necessitating many young people living with friends in houseshares for a number of years, has led to many young people developing very strong friendships and in many cases, getting a closeness and level of support from those friendships that most people of their parents’ generation thought was only possible to have from a romantic partner.

I’m in a relationship currently, but I was never desperate to be in one when I wasn’t, and nor am I terrified of my relationship ending: I know that I have friends around me who are a source of endless mutual love and support. I don’t think that my own parents and their peers ever had that, or thought that it was desirable. The number of MN threads where posters seem to pooh-pooh adults spending lots of time with their friends or having lots of friends as childish and somehow juvenile because friendship isn’t the “real deal” compared to having a family reinforces that for me.

I don't think it's that unusual for people in intimate relationships to get married and have children if they want to.

What's newer and important is that conventions are far less mandatory than they used to be.