To think children in elite sport isn't common?

[raindances]

Was having this debate with a friend earlier.

DS is 4.5 and just starting sports clubs.

I was telling my friend about this and somehow we got onto the topic of elite sport (e.g. high level gymnastic for their age, goals of olympics or similar).

She said that "loads" of kids do sport at an elite level and that "most" are abused?!

She thinks it's unfair on the children.

I don't think I've ever come across a child in elite sport and think it's only a few that actually get to such a level?

I'm not sure at what point it moves from just competitive to elite.

I know some incredible gymnasts and even then they are progressing to national level, but I don't think even then it's elite. I don't know

Just remembered, I know one trampolinist who is definitely heading for Olympics but this is the only one of hundreds of kids in the village schools.

Of course not many kids are 'elite' because sport is a pyramid- tonnes of kids participating at the base and fewer and fewer getting through to the higher levels.

It also depends whether the sport is 'early entry' or not. A child might be in a progamme aimed at elite performance at 8 years old in gymnastics, whereas in the sport my DS does most kids don't even start until they are 8 or so and the 'elite' pathway kicks in at about 17/18.

She’s right for gymnastics at least.

”elite track” starts at age 7/8, so they are usually selected around age 6. Depending on the club you’re looking at 12+ hours per week.

Gymnastics elite track is a defined pathway where you have to achieve a score for each level to progress to the next. Then you’re junior elite at 13/14/15, and on the senior elite circuit the year you turn 16.

it’s very unusual to join the elite track older than 8 as you have to catch up with those kids who have been intensively training for years.

i don’t like it, I do think it sets up an environment for abuse, and many kids are abused, emotionally at the very least.

compared to the general numbers of kids, well girls really, as men’s works differently, there are very few on the elite track. Still a significant number though.

I presume similar “early start” sports like ice skating, diving etc work in a similar way.

What is “elite” in terms of team sports? National level or county level?

In my daughters' year there are a national level cricketer, gymnast and a trampolinist. Definitely 2 out of 3 have fucking awful parents. Fortunately they're off my radar mainly as those families are now looking to move to "pursue" (force) their child's progress. It seems like a very high number to me, though I remember two girls from my own year went into international level sport. I guess there are a lot of sports though

I used to team manage athletics teams at U13, U15 & U17 as my DSS was involved and they needed help with it. This was around 10 years ago.
I had around 150 kids in my teams. Sone absolute reliable ones. A few real high potential ones. Most just good at what they did, with a great team spirit.
Four went on to wear an England vest at Junior level, one has moved up into elite and competes regularly and is seen on TV.
Aside from the 150 kids in my pool who could compete at the league level I ran, there was maybe another 100 that didn't quite get called up for them but still did competitions.

One girl from DDs sport club has just made the County team. (2 others made the development programme). (U16s)

Of that County team... maybe one or two will ever play professionally.

Of all the County teams currently... maybe one of two girls will ever make the England squad.

DD is nearly 10... currently the analysis of her performance is a good eye and sense of space, but it depends whether she grows or not!

Both my children took part in a sport at elite level (national, British, and international competitions - one was set to trial for Team GB but then COVID struck). They were 2 of about 5 kids in the school of 1000 pupils who were competing at that level - I remember one had a training contract with a premiership club and one was a diver. My kids certainly weren’t abused, though the training schedule was punishing (6 days a week, 3-4 hours a day) and they gave up a lot - parties, holidays, etc. but that was their choice, we never forced them, and when they (at different times) announced they wanted to leave we didn’t try to persuade them to stay. It was expensive and consumed all our time and energy. It’s nice having the evenings and money again.

If you believe Mumsnet, everybody’s child is either an elite gymnast or elite swimmer, in the same way that everyone’s child is “a beanpole”, ie very tall and skinny, despite eating like a horse, and also has a reading age several decades above their chronological age, and grade 8 in multiple unrelated instruments by Reception.

In reality I don’t know anyone whose children are doing anything above county-level sport, anyone more than one year ahead in their reading, or anyone greater than grade 5 by end of primary school. I’m sure these children exist, but not in the huge numbers claimed on here. And I live in an area of SE London famed for its pushy parents.

And “elite track” gymnastics just means their club has told them to come to practice every night. Many children are invited to this, usually aged 6-8, the vast majority drop back out again when they realise what training for 10-15 hours a week actually entails. It doesn’t mean they actually end up at the Olympics, or even in the Nationals.

Gymnastics?

see I think that a sport that makes children choose between parties and training is likely to be bordering on abusive.

I always gave mine the choice, and they usually picked the party or the holiday (not being able to afford holidays because of the ££££ is a different matter!)

if a club tried to stop them having the odd day off for whatever reason they’d be out of there. Same with injury recovery- mine don’t train with injuries.

This

And “elite track” gymnastics just means their club has told them to come to practice every night. Many children are invited to this, usually aged 6-8, the vast majority drop back out again when they realise what training for 10-15 hours a week actually entails. It doesn’t mean they actually end up at the Olympics, or even in the Nationals

no actually, it doesn’t. Kids on elite track have a shit ton of time and effort invested into them, so they only invite those with potential.

they may invite others to train every night for the £££££, but they won’t be elite track unless they have certain qualities- which again I don’t agree with as kids develop at different rates.

usually gymnastics elite track kids to burn out or injure by 12, as it’s just not healthy in my opinion.

I’m not quite sure what makes them ‘elite’, but at DD’s school there are lots of children who represent GB in various sports. No coincidence that it’s a private school and they are from families who can afford the travel/training/kit.

Elite means nothing. Some use it to mean competitive, some use it at national squad level.

I think it is more common in something like gymnastics although whether this actually leads to anything for many of these kids on the elite path is highly unlikely. Similar for dance.

It's questionable whether some of this is an industry playing on parents who get sucked into it all. Parents need to aware of this and be their children's advocates.

'Elite' means different things in different contexts. My DC is on the national squad for his age group in a sport, and qualifies for a scholarship through his university's "elite athlete" programme, but it's not a sport that the UK has any prospect of qualifying in for the Olympics, so during Covid his squad wasn't classed as elite and therefore not allowed to train as a team during the most restrictive parts of the lockdown, or travel abroad any sooner than the general public.

If you look up how many diiferent Olympic or Commonwealth Games sports there are, and consider that each of those sports has junior age group categories, and then there are also many other sports that compete internationally, then the numbers of potentially 'elite' juniors can be estimated.

My dds boyfriend (they're both students) has a younger brother (teenager) who is national level in gymnastics (currently competing for uk no1 status in his discipline). It takes up all the family time and effort, there's no time or money left for the other 2 kids in the family (supporting them through uni etc) and dds boyfriend has to work everything aroundit, for example they never eat as a family due to the gymnasts schedule. Boyfriend spends a lot of time at our house these days as he just doesn't feel valued by his family except for what he can do for his brothers future. He was also a gymnast but wasn't as good and was glad to quit after the pressure was put on him by his parents.

Seeing the pain it causes him and his sibling, I'm glad none of our kids were good enough like that - dd2 was a good swimmer but the training got too much.

I'm not sure what OP was trying to ask. Most sporty kids do what they can for own satisfaction, ultimately. DS is like that.

The 2 young adult female (professional, Olympian, on TV) athletes we know had nicely supportive proud loving parents, not horrible pushy parents.

I don’t think many kids are doing elite level sports. In my child’s ordinary primary school there is one county level cricketer and one child who does regional level competitions in a very niche and not Olympic sport. That’s it for anything more than “sport for fun”, and I wouldn’t call either of them “elite”. I dare say if your child goes to a private school or a school in a different area you’d get more, but I very much doubt it’s “loads”. I mean, that’s the whole definition of “elite”, surely - that they’re the very top few.

While I seriously doubt “most” children are abused (certainly across sport as a whole, certain disciplines perhaps much more than others though) I do agree with your friend though that I would never allow my child to pursue very intense sports training as a young child, so I’d rule out gymnastics etc. I don’t think it’s healthy, physically or otherwise.

It’s not always obvious if kids are in elite sport though.

how do you know which kids are leaving school for a 3 hour training session and which ones are going home or to a recreational sports session?

unless it’s in the school newsletter or something how would you find out?

my kid in his first year of secondary no one knew as he didn’t mention it. He had absence authorised for sport related stuff but the reason for absences were not disclosed by the school to teachers etc. he even had every Friday off at one point but but because it was all arranged by SLT and he wasn’t on the class registers for those classes no one realised he wasn’t in school.

even the PE teachers didn’t work it out because he was the smallest in the class (and also not a runner!) so not outstanding at stuff like hockey and football.

wasn’t until the end of the year when they did an exercise in PE about their “sporting achievements” and he answered the “what do you like about sport” question with travelling to different countries and competing for GB 😂

It might depend a bit on what circles you move in IYSWIM. I know quite a few kids in elite sport because a) DH and I are sporty, and we have sporty friends, who have sporty offspring and b) two of our kids compete at a reasonably high level for their ages in their chosen sports - though I wouldn't define our DC as elite, there are kids at their clubs who are, whom we've got to know.
By elite I mean genuine potential to, or actually competing for, their nation.

I don't know any kids who are abused but I will say that there are some INCREDIBLY pushy parents in one of my DC's sports, and it's not the one you'd expect either (which has been mentioned several times on this thread already :) )

Not that hard to be 'elite' in boys gymnastics- there's barely any boys that even do it! Only about 4 decent boys clubs. Bit different in girl's gymnastics.

DC has just had a try out for an "elite" squad. She got a place - if she wants it.
She's 12, she started in the sport about 8 months ago, she's only averagely sporty. Its absolutely not "elite" in the sense of it being "good" on a national basis.... Its only "elite" compared to other kids at the same club.

Lots and lots of sports clubs seem to have an "elite" training group. All the kids who take part in these cannot be "elite" on a national or international basis. Possibly its a way to encourage parents to pay for more training hours. Possibly its to flatter or motivate dc to stay with that club. Maybe its to have a difference between recreational, competitive, and elite trainibg sessions.

I do think some dc training veers toward abusive - long hours for very young children where it doesnt matter if you destroy one, theres 6 more to choose from.

Yep, at our local competitive swimming club, all children are in “a training squad” regardless of their actual swimming ability. They go to regional swimming galas, but then so did I in primary school and I was in no way “elite”; as far as I know the lower-age galas were pretty much open to anyone who could finish a length.

And I would say that 50% of child gymnasts are put forward for “the Elite squad” in their club, and all that means is “parents, you need to pay for five classes a week not one”). It doesn’t mean the child will ever compete, regionally or nationally.