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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Eldery Care

132 replies

2023forme · 18/02/2023 13:28

I don’t really know what the point of my post is but I am feeling quite upset by some things in my working life that I need to get it off my chest. It’s a long one so you have been warned.

I have been a nurse for 30 years.
The first half of my career was working in cancer and palliative care and the second was in nurse education, mainly supporting student nurses on clinical placement. Got offered voluntary early release from the university so took it – but I wasn’t ready (or financially able) to stop working completely so I took a job at a lovely care home just round the corner from me.
A friend’s mum was a resident not too long ago and she rated it highly plus it meant a short walk to work and no commute, so I was really looking forward to doing clinical care again. But OMG – what an eye opener it has been.

I just was not prepared for how bad staffing is in the care home sector, the lack of resources and the level of waste has appalled me.
I enjoy the job itself but it has really made me think about my own future and that I need to make an advance directive now as I don’t want to end up living in a care home and just existing.

Staffing levels are dire. On a good shift, we will have a ratio of one staff member to five residents. There is one nurse and one nursing assistant on a shift and the rest of the staff are carers. Out of 32 residents, 27 need two staff members for personal care, continence care and moving/transferring/mobilising. Only 2 residents can feed themselves/take a drink independently. There is at least one agency nurse or carer per shift – often more. This means they don’t know the residents well and don’t understand their needs and preferences. There are also a high percentage of male carers who do agency and most of the female residents have specified in their care plans for only females to provide personal care. Given that women live longer than men, the residents are about 70% female to male. This means that often the male agency carers have very little to do whilst the female staff are run ragged. It also means that residents have to wait longer for care because the female staff are tied up meeting other residents’ needs. Sometimes we have no option but to ask the male carers to attend to a female resident’s care if the resident has dementia and is unable to say no to the male carer input, which feels really wrong to me. We are in the middle of a huge debate about trans women getting access to female spaces yet the issues of males having ‘access’ to some of our most vulnerable female members of society is not really considered.

The level of waste is truly shocking. An example is that last week we received a 3 month supply of high fluoride toothpaste – around 120 tubes. Since the toothpaste is prescribed, it is labelled with an individual resident’s name, meaning it cannot be given to another resident and if it is not used, it will be returned to the pharmacy and destroyed. I would estimate that about 90% of the residents who are prescribed this toothpaste cannot have their teeth brushed because they don’t consent to it (evidenced through spitting at you, hitting you and spitting it out) they choke when you try to do it or they are simply too weak to have it done to them/ can’t open their mouth etc.

The amount of medicines the residents are on is also eye opening. We have 95 year olds who are very frail and have less than 6 months to live still getting anti-cholesterol medications, folic acid and iron supplements and the like. A lot of the time, and I mean a lot, the medications are not tolerated by the residents (tablets too big even when halved and if effervescent is available, too big a volume to drink). Those with dementia just spit the tablets out. Last week we returned about 200 high protein drinks to the pharmacy for destruction as they hadn’t been used and were out of date.

But you cannot get a GP to stop prescribing as they don’t want to look like they are not treating the resident well. No one seems brave enough to say ….”look, this person is not going to benefit from cholesterol lowering drugs so lets just stop them”. In my palliative care practice, someone at the end of life had their medications stopped and were only on end of life meds to palliate symptoms.
I’m not talking about meds that help such as pain killers – but those that are just not going to add anything to the quality of the resident’s life. So we have all this money being spent on meds, high energy drinks, toothpaste etc but we can’t buy enough pressure relieving mattresses or employ more staff, both of which would do more to help provide better care.

We have one lady at the moment (aged 98) who is very frail and cognitively impaired. She has contractures, her skin is like tissue paper and is constantly tearing, she is doubly incontinent, unable to swallow much and is in a lot of pain.
But the GP won’t prescribe her morphine as he feels it is too strong for her frail state – if she had terminal cancer, no-one would think twice. She screams out all night, asking to be ‘put to sleep’, upsetting other residents and keeping them awake. We cannot sedate her – she is prescribed a medication for agitation, but she refuses to swallow it. In her lucid moments, she describes how her life is a living hell, she feels trapped in a decaying body and just wants to die.

I truly think we have lost our way when it comes to care of the elderly. People aren’t allowed to just get old and die anymore – its like we want to keep them living but for what? I’m not talking about treating reversible things which cause distress like urine infections – but really, what is the point in giving vitamin D tablets or iron supplements to someone who will likely die in a few weeks.

I don’t know what to do with regards to my employment – I want to remain and do the best I can for the residents but I am getting more depressed and frustrated at work. I spend around two hours of a 12 hour shift writing about care rather than actually providing the care. This is how long it takes to update the residents daily care plans – so I will be writing things like “Betty enjoys sitting in the garden and reminiscing about her time as a teacher” – but I can’t actually find the time to sit and talk with her and we can’t spare anyone to take her to the garden.

So AIBU to leave my job because I am finding it upsetting?
YABU – you have taken a role with vulnerable people and you need to stay and help provide care for them.
YANBU – you need to protect your own mental health and leave the work to those who can cope better with it.

OP posts:
MarshaMelrose · 18/02/2023 20:33

AlaskaThunderfuckHiiiiiiiii · 18/02/2023 20:26

@MarshaMelrose everyone is different but I personally wouldn’t have had a big op like that and all of the associated recovery and meds in my 80s

They said she had a heart of a 60yo. I stayed with her for a month after the op and then she lived independently again. She drove herself to her aftercare physio. She took isosorbide, aspirin and statin. That's it. Oh, maybe initially a couple more but I cant remember now. But they were stooped quite early on.

MereDintofPandiculation · 18/02/2023 20:35

Cuppasoupmonster · 18/02/2023 15:28

It will be unpopular but I don’t believe in life saving interventions for the over 90s, just pain relief.

I don’t believe in determining treatment by age alone, without considering the overall health of the person or their own wishes.

MarshaMelrose · 18/02/2023 20:39

But we are all different, and it's much easier to see things from a non-family side than when it's family. It's very very difficult.

I certainly agree with this! It's very difficult when it's your relative.
Also I think we often know what we want for our futures. But when we get there, it's not so clear cut.
My dad used to say he'd die happy if he just made it to 70...until he got to 69!

memorial · 18/02/2023 20:45

MarshaMelrose · 18/02/2023 20:28

However as evidence by a number of posts on here families are often the problem. Wanting everything done refusing to stop meds and engendering a fear of managing old age as a terminal disease like cancer. 92 yrs olds 94 Yr old may have good quality of life of course but sadly it doesn't take a lot to destabilise them and in this current climate there is always someone looking to blame.

I don't know if this refers to me, I think it does.

I understand about the frailty of old age. My mum pulled her back a few months ago. She got better but it's had a long term effect on her more mentally than anything. I understand every time a blow, mental or physical, happens, there is a toll and there's no bouncing back like she did at 70.

I don't want them to keep her alive at all costs. I want her to be given a fair chance to try and recover. She enjoys her life. I don't think she should be stopped taking statins and aspirin in order to hasten her death. I honestly don't believe you do either. She's mobile, continent, can dress herself, feed herself, have opinions, laugh at jokes, make jokes. I'm just asking not to write her off because she's falls outside a pre-set idea of how life should be lived.

I wasn't specifically referring to you no and of course I understand each person is different at different ages. That's why individualised ACP are vital.
However the evidence for benefit vs the evidence of risk is not as clear cut in the very elderly. Aspirin has lots of risks and statins well that's a whole debate.
I was just addressing the issue of meds being needlessly prescribed and some of the reasons why.
Personally (as a GP of more than 20 yrs with a special interest in chronic diseases) I won't be taking any preventative meds over the age of 70/75. Stopping a statin doesn't hasten death that's just nonsense.

snazzychair · 18/02/2023 20:47

Thank you for this post, truly.

The care sector is absolutely in a dire state, and people are not seen as people, they are seen as a number in my experience.

:(

Cuppasoupmonster · 18/02/2023 20:50

MarshaMelrose · 18/02/2023 20:12

Especially when dementia is involved with the very elderly, I do agree that life-prolonging meds should not be given.

My mum is 87 with dementia. She had an elective triple bypass at 81. She takes statins and aspirin to keep her heart going. Would you take her off those? She also has an iron infusion twice a year. Would you stop that?
Where is the line of what you would and wouldn't give to a dementia sufferer? And at what stage of dementia?

As we’re talking about this in frank terms I don’t think funding a triple heart bypass for an 81 year old is a great use of funds, particularly if they have dementia. I think there should be a staggered approach to what treatment can be offered until which age, after 90 I would say nothing more than 1 course of antibiotics or pain relief only.

MereDintofPandiculation · 18/02/2023 20:55

Cuppasoupmonster · 18/02/2023 19:34

Well he absolutely should not be driving as a 90 year old with serious health issues!

Why? Not all health issues affect driving ability. A friend of mine has Type I diabetes, another has Crohn’s. DVLA is happy for them both to drive. The mere fact of being 90 makes no difference.

Cuppasoupmonster · 18/02/2023 20:57

MereDintofPandiculation · 18/02/2023 20:55

Why? Not all health issues affect driving ability. A friend of mine has Type I diabetes, another has Crohn’s. DVLA is happy for them both to drive. The mere fact of being 90 makes no difference.

Because a 90 year old is in no way mentally sharp enough to drive! They didn’t even take a driving test to start with…

MarshaMelrose · 18/02/2023 20:59

Because a 90 year old is in no way mentally sharp enough to drive! They didn’t even take a driving test to start with…

My dad would be 91 if he were alive. He took a driving test! 🤔

MillicentTrilbyHiggins · 18/02/2023 21:01

Why wouldn't a 90 year old have taken a driving test? They were compulsory for anyone who started driving after 1st April 1934.
So people were driving before they were 5ish years old they did a driving test.

MereDintofPandiculation · 18/02/2023 21:13

Personally (as a GP of more than 20 yrs with a special interest in chronic diseases) I won't be taking any preventative meds over the age of 70/75. Stopping a statin doesn't hasten death that's just nonsense. I'm having to make the decision as to whether I want to take statins. Presumably there are health benefits else they wouldn’t be prescribed! If they just reduced the chance of a cardiac arrest, then it would be easy, no statins. But if they reduce the chance of a stroke, and the likelihood of greater disability it’s more difficult to refuse.

Because a 90 year old is in no way mentally sharp enough to drive! Mental sharpness varies from person to person. There are immense variations between elderly people. One person’s 90 may be another person’s 70

after 90 I would say nothing more than 1 course of antibiotics or pain relief only If it’s good use of funds you’re after, it would be more cost effective to help anyone, of any age, put an end to things, and leave alone those very rare 90 year olds who are still enjoying life

NellietheElephantpackedhertrunks · 18/02/2023 21:14

EffortlessDesmond · 18/02/2023 16:36

@2023forme Sadly, that's the reality of life even in good well run homes. DMIL is delivered from it now, but her last couple of years were horrible. She was 93, with dementia, doubly incontinent, with polymyalgia and scoliosis. Fortunately, the care manager was an absolute tiger and made sure the GP took her off all the unnecessary tablets. But her last few weeks were traumatic because she fell and needed hospitalisation on an acute orthopaedic trauma ward in the high needs bay, with five other elderly ladies, several of whom screamed all night, every night.

DMIL was a nurse, and was utterly convinced of the need for a change in the law on assisted dying.

I feel the same re assisted dying (and have done as long as I can remember).

When a much loved pet is very ill and in distress, it is quickly and painlessly put out of its misery. I would definitely want that option for myself, when the time comes (and without having to fly to another country and my body then needing to be expensively repatriated).

SgtBilko · 18/02/2023 21:15

Cuppasoupmonster · 18/02/2023 20:50

As we’re talking about this in frank terms I don’t think funding a triple heart bypass for an 81 year old is a great use of funds, particularly if they have dementia. I think there should be a staggered approach to what treatment can be offered until which age, after 90 I would say nothing more than 1 course of antibiotics or pain relief only.

Lots of people in their early 90s are living active lives. You can’t say they can only have one course of antibiotics. Loads of elderly people get UTIs and chest infections they can recover from and carry on for more years. On the other hand, there are people much younger who have interventions and they aren’t going to make it to 80. I hope to god you aren’t a health care professional.

EffortlessDesmond · 18/02/2023 21:35

@SgtBilko some people in their 90s are still living well but on balance, most are just coping with help from the people that love them. Kudos to the super-fit nonagenarians but they are exceptions.

MarshaMelrose · 18/02/2023 21:42

Personally (as a GP of more than 20 yrs with a special interest in chronic diseases) I won't be taking any preventative meds over the age of 70/75. Stopping a statin doesn't hasten death that's just nonsense.

You read all sorts in newspapers so it's interesting hearing an actual GP. My mum had her statins doubled last year. She was told by the GP that both the statins and aspirin were important to keep her arteries from clogging up and to keep her blood flowing smoothly. Do you think that's wrong and she'd be healthier not taking them at all? That neither are helping her stay alive?

lovemypuppa · 18/02/2023 21:50

Excellent thread - thank you for sharing your experiences.

Needaholidayyesterday · 18/02/2023 22:01

wow OP
what a post, I quite agree with other replies 🙏

I should be surprised but I’m not

For your own sanity, leave and find another job. It will break you, particularly if you’ve had alcohol issues before.

DF is at palliative and nearing the end right now, and I too want not only an advice directive but to sort
dignatas or similar out for myself. There is absolutely no way I want to go through what he has been through in the last 2 weeks. It’s cruel, not kind, and I would have treated one of my animals better. Fortunately he’s now on a nice ward, his 3rd ward in 2 weeks, and is calm. Until then he was distressed, agitated, trying to escape, unable to hear anyone as they kept losing his hearing aids, ripping out canulas. But he had no DNR nor any end of life plan, so nothing I could do at all.

memorial · 18/02/2023 22:02

MarshaMelrose · 18/02/2023 21:42

Personally (as a GP of more than 20 yrs with a special interest in chronic diseases) I won't be taking any preventative meds over the age of 70/75. Stopping a statin doesn't hasten death that's just nonsense.

You read all sorts in newspapers so it's interesting hearing an actual GP. My mum had her statins doubled last year. She was told by the GP that both the statins and aspirin were important to keep her arteries from clogging up and to keep her blood flowing smoothly. Do you think that's wrong and she'd be healthier not taking them at all? That neither are helping her stay alive?

It's an individual patient discussion and decision. Primary vs secondary prevention is very important and other comorbidities eg stents. Just treating the numbers is a bad idea. So impossible to comment without knowing the full history and indication.
www.ox.ac.uk/news/2017-06-13-long-term-aspirin-use-linked-bleeding-risk-over-75s
www.choosingwisely.org/patient-resources/cholesterol-drugs-for-people-75-and-older/
The longer I do this job the more I realise how important do no harm is.

Streamside · 18/02/2023 22:11

pingopango · 18/02/2023 15:33

You can't have that as a blanket rule, it's just not appropriate. Look at David Attenborough. He's 96. If he developed a chest infection or pneumonia and it was treatable would you refuse and just offer pain meds?

So true, I've an elderly relative in his 90's who cuts his own firewood and hasn't had a days illness in years. Every person is different and that includes elderly people.

albapunk · 18/02/2023 22:25

@Cuppasoupmonster I cared for a 95 y/o man who was still driving, his mind was physically sharp and his body was obviously slower when walking around ,but he was very able and he was absolutely safe to drive. He required short-term care after an operation and then back to independently caring for himself.

Drivers 90+ are definitely in the minority but there absolutely are those who are still safe to drive. I think after 75 we should all take a driving lesson to get an instructors opinion on how safe our driving is though

helpfulperson · 18/02/2023 22:25

My Dad was in a scruffy care home that really could have done with a lick of paint but the care was second to none. He had advanced dementia and they had conversations with my mum about his treatment and when he would and wouldn't be admitted to hospital. Essentially they could provide an equivalent care to the local cottage hospital and he would only be admitted if it was something like a fracture that needed treatment to keep him pain free. He was on a floor bed with an alarm in case he managed to roll off the low bed and then off the floor mattress onto the floor. The local pharmacist visited to review medication and spoke to the local GP. Between them, the care home nurse and my Mum it was agreed what medication would benefit him and which would just prolong his life pointlessly,

SatInMySpottyOnesie · 18/02/2023 22:35

I’ll read this thread in full tomorrow…
The world needs more people like you 💕
I honestly don’t know how to vote but didn’t want to read and run
You are amazing xx 💐

MarshaMelrose · 18/02/2023 22:40

Fair enough @memorial. I appreciate you taking the time to help.

LaBelleSauvage123 · 18/02/2023 22:48

My father is in a nursing home which sounds very similar to the one you work in OP. High end, lots of agency staff, lots of food waste certainly ( as a relative I don’t know about other wastage). He is a ‘difficult’ patient - his dementia often makes him agitated and impatient, he tries to get up and falls frequently and often has hallucinations and delusions. A nurse has just started there who really cares. She takes time to talk to the residents and relatives when she can and is clearly dedicated. It makes such a huge difference, I can’t stress to you how much. To him, to us, to the atmosphere there. You may feel demoralised but I am willing to bet you make a similar difference.

HedwigIsMyDemon · 18/02/2023 22:48

@2023forme I couldn’t agree more re the pointless extending of life for no purpose. I went to see Ben Elton do stand up a couple of years ago and he spoke very eloquently on this subject having watched his dad rot in a care home with dementia for 10 years.

I honestly don’t know what the answer is but you’re so right about the crazy use of pointless meds and entirely unnecessary interventions. It’s a desperate tragedy that we’re too scared to face up to.