To say religious state schools shouldn’t exist?

[Mushroo]

This is probably controversial but interested in opinions on both sides!

I attended a catholic primary and secondary school and had a lovely education (my parents are actually quite religious). However, given how increasingly secular the UK is it seems quite antiquated and divisive to segregate schools based on religion?

Where I live, our closest primary school as the crow flies is religious (c of e) and as a now atheist we wouldn’t get a place as we sit at the very bottom of the admissions criteria (other religions are given priority over atheist). This means we’d have to walk past it to get to the non-religious school further away.

This leads to many people ‘finding god’ in the nursery years to get a place which I refuse to do.

I don’t see the benefit of religious schools, surely if you are a religious family, you can learn about religion at your place of worship / Sunday school or equivalent.

I think state school should be secular and teach all religions equally (including atheism as an option) and places shouldn’t be offered based on religion. State school places should be based on particular needs (e.g. adopted children, siblings and then distance only).

Genuinely interested in thoughts, AIBU?

In our nearest city there are 2 faith schools, 2 single sex grammar schools and 1 comp with no sixth form.

Parents are having to find £800pa for buses to get their kids to school out of town as the criteria for the 4 is so high in terms of religion or entrance exams.

All options are possible for my child but I still don't think it is right

@Another76543 that surprises me.. my school is 40% eal and a high proportion of those children are practising Muslims...

Id suggest looking at thr Church of England inspection reports for church schools (SIAMS) for a true reflection on whether a church school is "good" or not.. ours has a strong Christian ethos but is very inclusive and we celebrate Eid, are a "no outsiders" school and achieved the highest grade in our recent inspection not because we indoctrinate children on the bible but because our Christian values underpin our pastoral and educational vision., we love and value each and every pupil.

The state does not (usually) own the land/buildings of a church school, although nowadays it may contribute to maintenance. Depending on whether the school is voluntary aided or voluntary controlled, the church may also contribute to the running costs

In Voluntary Controlled schools the state doesn't "contribute" to maintenance - it usually pays all of it

Voluntary Aided schools are different in that the churches are expected to pay 10% of the building costs (except under "exceptional circumstances" which are left unexplained) but an FOI request shows even this is being reduced:

www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/faith-schools-funding-money-religion-voluntary-aided-accord-coalition-a9192296.html

Each school has different admissions criteria. CofE primary schools often don’t seem to stipulate worship as an admissions criteria. However, there are a lot of CofE secondary schools which do.

You most definitely do not need to be a catholic to work in, or attend, catholic schools in Scotland nowadays.

What's wrong with being white British? This is the UK and we are in a majority white country.

Yes, we get it OP, you think your left-wing liberal ideas make you better than everyone else and despising religion means you are oh so clever

What a trodden and shallow view

The truth is, the UK is a Christian country, our Head of State is Christian.

Deal with it

What does this mean? Because secular schools are ridden with ideology and indoctrination these days, as if it were a new cult. I would much rather my children learned about religion

You’re being quite defensive. I have no problem with religion despite not being religious myself.

There are aspects of religion I really respect, and I generally hold Christian values.

However, I don’t think it should be a factor in school admission policies.

On your point that ‘we’re a Christian country’ historically yes, but the latest census says that we aren’t (see below).

Also, there is obviously nothing wrong with being white British 🙄 but I think a school should reflect the diversity of the local area, and my catholic school definitely didn’t (although other posters have suggested that less of the case though which is good) and that segregation is inherently bad.

Out of interest @unsureatthispoint do you agree with state funded religious schools that aren’t Christian?

Imagine if other state funded services discriminated against you due to your religion. A catholic state funded hospital that only treated Catholics and checked you at the a&e triage desk what religion you are and if you are christened and attended church on Sunday before providing treatment.

I was gobsmacked when I learned that religious schools in this country were state schools. The nearest high school for us is cofe and I’m so annoyed and angry my DDs have to travel twice as far to school because of my beliefs. I’m so worried how they will get to school next year and she has to walk past a state funded school to get to her high school.
I haven’t heard any good reason on here why religious schools should remain state funded schools or even be allowed to have religious schools at all. Surely you can practice your faith in church on the weekend or after school.

Totally and utterly agree with you OP, and to the pp that said parents would fund it themselves - crack on!

Taxpayers money should not be used to fund schools that our children are excluded from. It’s utter indefensible bollocks.

VC or VA?
And
Oversubscribed or undersubscribed?

What applies in your school isn't what happens in all of them.

because our Christian values underpin our pastoral and educational vision., we love and value each and every pupil.

Absolute condescending arrogant self-important guff. I thought pride was a sin.

@unsureatthispoint your username is spot on as you actually seem unsure of the facts. We are not a Christian country anymore and even if we were that does not mean that schools are the place to teach that. Teach it at home by all means but schools should be secular.

No, most people in the UK are not Christian.

Imagine if other state funded services discriminated against you due to your religion. A catholic state funded hospital that only treated Catholics and checked you at the a&e triage desk what religion you are and if you are christened and attended church on Sunday before providing treatment.

Or even odder, due to your parents religion (real or purported).

'Faith schools' discriminate privilege some children and discriminate against others based upon whether their parents manage to attend church or not. So much for their wonderful 'ethos'.

@MasterBeth oh ffs don't patronise me! Basically we do what all schools should do., we just happen to be church school.

It's a lovely school and I'm proud to work there because I see day in and day out the difference we make, if it wasn't a church school I'm sure we'd still have the same loving ethos!

And I say that as not a particularly practising Christian and who's children do not attend a church school just the local school to where I live.

if it wasn't a church school I'm sure we'd still have the same loving ethos!

Quite so.
So what exactly is the point of church schools then?

@Mammyloveswine but that’s the point isn’t it, all schools should be teaching about a caring and inclusive ethos. Although religious schools can’t really do that with a straight face because they exclude from the word go whereas secular schools don’t start from that premise of hypocrisy 🤷‍♀️.

That is the complete opposite of what you said in your first post.

From the Campaign for Fair Admissions to take the anecdata out of whether CofE schools have faith admissions or not:

•19% of secondary schools are faith-based. 16% religiously select to some degree, with 72% of all places at faith secondaries – equivalent to 13% of places at all secondaries – being subject to religious admissions criteria.
•We estimate that 17% of places at primaries are similarly religiously selected, or 1.2 million primary and secondary places across England.
•This means that 16% of children at state schools are subject to religious selection criteria. This compares with 5% of secondary-age children in grammar schools, 5% in single-sex schools and 7% in independent schools.
•99.8% of places at Catholic secondaries are subject to religious selection in admissions criteria. For Church of England schools the figure is 49.7% but for those CofE schools fully in control of their own admissions policies with no legal or regulatory limitations it is 68%.
•Anglican dioceses vary widely in how religiously selective their secondaries are. The most selective is Liverpool (84%) and the least is Leicester (3%). The Diocese of London, despite its recent commitments to inclusivity, has 68% of places subject to religious selection – well above average and therefore still with some way to go.

The London point chimes with me. The majority of our local primary schools are faith schools, all have faith admissions criteria. The impact of this on the community schools is that their catchments are absolutely tiny, whereas the faith schools have a fair few out of borough children.

We were 'lucky' to get our elder into the local CofE school thanks to a poor Ofsted, when suddenly all those parents who needed their children to have a CofE education suddenly discovered it wasn't that important after all.

Apparently there was much wailing when the follow up Ofsted gave it a clean bill of health and was quite glowing. Lots of folk had got a bit lax on their churchgoing when there wasn't a school place on the line.

Ideally there would be no religious element to schools and all history could be taught. How much time at a Catholic primary school is taken up with teaching Irish history? I can't imagine it's that much (I agree it is important to know about history but I mean as part of the curriculum it can't be a huge proportion).

The division of children into Catholic and state aka Protestant schools by default in NI is one of the (many) factors contributing to some people living in the past instead of looking to the future.

It's so different to England where Church of England parents would send their children to a Catholic school, it just doesn't happen in NI. There is a huge lack of genuine integrated education options for schools in NI which is a real shame and a dilemma for people who don't subscribe to any faith. Some of my relatives there are struggling to find a school, and it's ridiculous that my nieces and nephews in NI who live so near ecah other can't go to the same school because some are Catholic and some are not.

I think religious schools should be private if they really need to exist but as a concept I am very much opposed to them.

There’s one near me which literally insists you attend their church specifically - another CoE church won’t do.

Very oversubscribed school, single form entry, so after sibling spaces are taken into account, they could say they were only offering to people with red hair and a surname beginning with T and they would probably still fill their spaces twice over.

And what what about the 1000s of tax paying parents whose children are excluded from certain schools as they could never afford to buy a property in the catchment area of the better ones, why is that so different?

I’m from a non Christian religion and moved across the country to ensure I had access to a state school that was of my religion. Now my dds learn about our religion at school and get our holidays off (as well as some Christian holidays).

ime people who want to abolish state religious schools aren’t religious and are intolerant of those who are. Live and let live - you may not have a religion important to you but plenty do. Why should schools only suit you and not everyone else as well.