Page 15 | To be pissed off about paying back child benefit

pinotnow · 2023-02-05T16:56:16+00:00

I am in a sector that was awarded a pay rise this year - though our union is fighting for a higher one. The rise was from September but our school (yes, it's teaching) didn't pay it until November when we got months at once. HR always send us a pay statement at this time of year and I have just opened mine and seen I am now on approx £52k (been teaching 18 years and am head of a core subject in a large secondary school). I understand I now have to pay back some of my child benefit. This is a pisser as things are pretty tight and I'm a lone parent who gets no CM (ex is a total waste of space - I've gone through CMS). Also, I wasn't expecting it this year (I was on £49k last year and now I'm worried I've missed some sort of deadline for paying it back as technically I've been on this for 5-6 months, but only just realised. I really haven't got the head space for this now and a quick Google has just brought confusion. As soon as you move forwards a bit in this shithole country you move backwards it seems. Any advice would be great!

CandleInTheStorm · 07/02/2023 17:04

Zax · 07/02/2023 16:53

Child benefit is archaic and in desperate need of overhaul or better still scrapping all together. A drain on the country's finances to fund people who choose to have kids but haven't budgeted properly. Divert the money to our pensioners who have given a lifetime of contributions in return for a pittance that they call a state pension. I know that I'll get slated for this but it's my view and I don't care about the impending responses l.

I agree, they need to scrap it altogether and put the money elsewhere for the most vulnerable. When you've got people on higher incomes complaining about not getting it (I don't get mean op), people trying to claim it could make or break their monthly finances as though they are somehow on the breadline, and not going for promotions to keep cb... you know it has to go.

Dobby123456 · 07/02/2023 17:05

BashirWithTheGoodBeard · 07/02/2023 14:02

Yep. The fact is that there's a bottleneck. Parents in particular can be in a position where the marginal costs just aren't worth it.

If it's a wage increase requiring nothing of you and you don't mind a bit of admin sure, take it and increase pension contributions. If it involves another shift, a different job, you might incur more work associated costs, for some people it's not going to be worth the effort in their circumstances. It all depends. People react differently, have different priorities, and one person's career advancement no brainer is another person's mugs game.

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I think this is the nit that people don't understand. There's no such thing as a free lunch. Employers don't go 'oh, you've been working for us for a few years, why don't we give you a nice pay rise.' Most organisations will have a whole list of hurdles you have to jump through meaning more time away from the kids, more late nights, more childcare at the weekends.

HistoryFanatic · 07/02/2023 17:19

Hellybelly84 · 07/02/2023 15:23

Do you have family help?
Does your Husband work away and work extremely long hours?
Do you have a nursery nearby?

There’s lot’s of reasons people have to stay at home in the early years (other than just wanting to). I loved being able to work when it became possible when mine went to pre-school/school.

I also hear from friends how exhausted they are when the grandparents are away and they have to ‘do it all’ and have to laugh. Plenty of people out there get given alot of free extra help (that would cost thousands if they were paying for it) that others dont have, so a blanket statement of ‘just work’ is rubbish.

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Nope I have no family nearby and can't afford childcare but also can't afford to quit my job so work round my husband's work. If you were a SAHM due to affordability of childcare I would sympathise but this is someone who just wants to stay at home and get money from the government.

BashirWithTheGoodBeard · 07/02/2023 17:29

GoodChat · 07/02/2023 14:56

Yeah if you're making other sacrifices too you have to weigh up pros and cons but we're talking about someone turning down a promotion on the basis of solely losing their child benefit.

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Well, the 40% tax bracket is also applicable at that point too. I know it starts lower in Scotland so the person was on it anyway, but it's obviously going to form part of the calculations about whether the benefits are worth the effort.

Hellybelly84 · 07/02/2023 17:47

HistoryFanatic · 07/02/2023 17:19

Nope I have no family nearby and can't afford childcare but also can't afford to quit my job so work round my husband's work. If you were a SAHM due to affordability of childcare I would sympathise but this is someone who just wants to stay at home and get money from the government.

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Im not a sahm now (I was for the first few years and beyond grateful I got that time with my kids - you can never get that back so its worth every sacrifice to me).

Without giving out my Husbands job, it would have been impossible to work around it (we can’t all work jobs around our Husband - for example Army where the Husband is away for many months etc) and lots of Mums have to fit jobs into school hours. As I have done since practically the day my kids were both in.

Also not asking for anything, dont claim anything, work school hours, Husband works harder than any other person I know. Im pointing out the waste to give it to people who dont need it. Thats exactly why ive said it should be based on total household income.

The thread is talking about the unfairness of a single Mum having it reduced or losing it altogether if she earns abit more, whilst a couple can be earning nearly double the amount she currently gets and still get it.

Is she right to be pissed off at that? Yes!

Princessglittery · 07/02/2023 18:24

I have hesitated to comment further on this thread but the lack of understanding of average incomes in the UK is surprising.

One benefit of CB not often mentioned is for a SAHP or very low earner is NI credits as long as they claim CB (can decline payment if affected by the tax taper) currently worth about £825 per year. Really important for state pension entitlement.

Child benefit is a state benefits like UC, state pension, maternity allowance etc. and surprise surprise are tax payer funded. Also tax payer funded are the salaries and pay increases of public sector workers including police, NHS workers, fire brigade, teachers & support staff, LA staff and Civil Servants.

In 2022 the median salary was c£33,000, that means 50% of the workforce earn less than this. People who earn £50,000+ are in roughly the top 20% of earners, and those earning £63,000 + are roughly the top 10% of earners.

The question for us as a society is if people who earn £50/63k feel it is wrong to receive less/no child benefit where do you draw the line? and more importantly who should pay more tax to fund it?

Scottishskifun · 07/02/2023 19:08

Princessglittery · 07/02/2023 18:24

I have hesitated to comment further on this thread but the lack of understanding of average incomes in the UK is surprising.

One benefit of CB not often mentioned is for a SAHP or very low earner is NI credits as long as they claim CB (can decline payment if affected by the tax taper) currently worth about £825 per year. Really important for state pension entitlement.

Child benefit is a state benefits like UC, state pension, maternity allowance etc. and surprise surprise are tax payer funded. Also tax payer funded are the salaries and pay increases of public sector workers including police, NHS workers, fire brigade, teachers & support staff, LA staff and Civil Servants.

In 2022 the median salary was c£33,000, that means 50% of the workforce earn less than this. People who earn £50,000+ are in roughly the top 20% of earners, and those earning £63,000 + are roughly the top 10% of earners.

The question for us as a society is if people who earn £50/63k feel it is wrong to receive less/no child benefit where do you draw the line? and more importantly who should pay more tax to fund it?

I think what most people struggle with is its not based on household income (like how other benefits are calculated) it's based on a single salary which means you get the very real scenario of 1 household with a combined joint income of 80/90k able to claim whilst a single parent just over the threshold it can be a issue.

The govt also has research which shows people are adjusting their working hours/promotions etc so they don't get caught out which means less tax from these people. Its why Truss govt were rumoured to be examining the threshold as less tax means less in the pot.

Where child benefit differs is the original principle that it's for all children hence actually anyone can claim it just over 50k they then need to do a tax return and pay it back which is separate policy to child benefit itself.

It's not fit for purpose but not sure the system could cope with trying to replace it

Newnamenewme23 · 07/02/2023 19:14

Without giving out my Husbands job, it would have been impossible to work around it (we can’t all work jobs around our Husband - for example Army where the Husband is away for many months etc) and lots of Mums have to fit jobs into school hours. As I have done since practically the day my kids were both in.

impossible? I know many forces wives, or wives whose husbands work away, women who’s husbands have long hours, or indeed women who have no husband or partner.

we use nurseries, childminders, breakfast clubs, after school clubs, swap days with other parents.

working school hours is a choice like any other. There is nothing stopping women working, whatever their husband’s jobs is. They just have to utilise paid childcare.

Newnamenewme23 · 07/02/2023 19:21

Where child benefit differs is the original principle that it's for all children

the original principle was to provide a source of income to mums, back in the day when they usually didn’t work, or if they did their finances were controlled by their husbands as it wasn’t so long ago women weren’t allowed their own bank accounts etc.

child benefit was introduced so vulnerable women with irresponsible husbands- financial abuse, alcoholism etc had at least some of their own money for food and other basics.

fitzwilliamdarcy · 07/02/2023 19:33

@Hellybelly84 You said:

My point was shouldn’t the government be at least giving parents (and usually it is the Mum who wants to stay at home abit more in the first few years but ofcourse some Dads do aswell) the chance to spend more time with their kids whilst they are young?

That’s what we’re disagreeing with. I’m sure loads of women would find it “impossible” to work if the government started funding them not to - hardly good for equality.

CandleInTheStorm · 07/02/2023 20:39

Newnamenewme23 · 07/02/2023 19:21

Where child benefit differs is the original principle that it's for all children

the original principle was to provide a source of income to mums, back in the day when they usually didn’t work, or if they did their finances were controlled by their husbands as it wasn’t so long ago women weren’t allowed their own bank accounts etc.

child benefit was introduced so vulnerable women with irresponsible husbands- financial abuse, alcoholism etc had at least some of their own money for food and other basics.

Yes back when their husband had spent half of it in the pub before he got home!

fairypeasant · 07/02/2023 22:12

Princessglittery · 07/02/2023 18:24

I have hesitated to comment further on this thread but the lack of understanding of average incomes in the UK is surprising.

One benefit of CB not often mentioned is for a SAHP or very low earner is NI credits as long as they claim CB (can decline payment if affected by the tax taper) currently worth about £825 per year. Really important for state pension entitlement.

Child benefit is a state benefits like UC, state pension, maternity allowance etc. and surprise surprise are tax payer funded. Also tax payer funded are the salaries and pay increases of public sector workers including police, NHS workers, fire brigade, teachers & support staff, LA staff and Civil Servants.

In 2022 the median salary was c£33,000, that means 50% of the workforce earn less than this. People who earn £50,000+ are in roughly the top 20% of earners, and those earning £63,000 + are roughly the top 10% of earners.

The question for us as a society is if people who earn £50/63k feel it is wrong to receive less/no child benefit where do you draw the line? and more importantly who should pay more tax to fund it?

It costs more to administrate this as a tapering benefit than it did as a universal benefit. Plus I (and likely others) cut my hours because CB tipped me from "worth it" to "not worth it- the state has lost my work (I work in the public sector) and my taxes. Overall, the state has lost money. So no tax rises needed.

Zax · 07/02/2023 22:41

Rishi and Hunt should launch a 'pay you to breed' campaign, then you'd all be happy and stop searching for ways to 'reduce' your income in order to receive handouts. I mean, £50k is well above national average so budget and deal with it or accept the promotions that have so often been referred to on here as rejected. This thread has been an eye opener. I'm going to send it to Jeremy Hunt with a detailed narrative to hopefully get some cost savings underway. He needs to calculate child benefits payments on gross salary with no allowance for creative reductions such as paying into pension scheme. To me this is a form of benefit fraud or will be when the government wakes up and smells the coffee.

hourbyhour101 · 07/02/2023 22:46

Daft question but one my friend was asking she's recently got a pay-rise of the similar amount to op and in similar situation re line income.

I suggested she dropped her hours (she's always complaining she doesn't have enough work life balance) but she said that wouldn't effected it and she would still lose CB ? Is that right ? If you can up your pension and make gift aid amount to lower your overall income ? Surely reducing your hours would also do it ?

Sorry 😵‍💫 I'm clearly being a bit thick or missing something (having never been entitled to CB) I don't know the inns and out but she says it's really screwed her !

Op I'm so sorry 💐

EasterIssland · 07/02/2023 22:54

Zax · 07/02/2023 22:41

Rishi and Hunt should launch a 'pay you to breed' campaign, then you'd all be happy and stop searching for ways to 'reduce' your income in order to receive handouts. I mean, £50k is well above national average so budget and deal with it or accept the promotions that have so often been referred to on here as rejected. This thread has been an eye opener. I'm going to send it to Jeremy Hunt with a detailed narrative to hopefully get some cost savings underway. He needs to calculate child benefits payments on gross salary with no allowance for creative reductions such as paying into pension scheme. To me this is a form of benefit fraud or will be when the government wakes up and smells the coffee.

What a stupid comment

so tell me which family will be better off. A couple earning 30k each with cb allowed or a single mum with 50k and having to return part of her cb money and paying bills on her own.

make sure you mention this on your letter to Sunak

EasterIssland · 07/02/2023 22:58

Zax · 07/02/2023 22:41

Rishi and Hunt should launch a 'pay you to breed' campaign, then you'd all be happy and stop searching for ways to 'reduce' your income in order to receive handouts. I mean, £50k is well above national average so budget and deal with it or accept the promotions that have so often been referred to on here as rejected. This thread has been an eye opener. I'm going to send it to Jeremy Hunt with a detailed narrative to hopefully get some cost savings underway. He needs to calculate child benefits payments on gross salary with no allowance for creative reductions such as paying into pension scheme. To me this is a form of benefit fraud or will be when the government wakes up and smells the coffee.

Also it’s not benefit fraud. It’s allowed hence why people do it. It’d be fraud if it wasn’t allowed

last year I was earning myself around 60k. Paying loads of taxes (nearly 1k a month). And I had to return part of the cb back to the government. The same government won’t give me a single penny if I ever need it because I’m rich. Ha. But if I put part of my money in my pension I’m not only keeping that money and the corresponding taxes but I also have to pay less back? And if I ever need the money as the government won’t help me then I’ll be able to use my pension pot.

Think on your letter to sunak, you should be thinking who is your enemy … those earning 60k and paying their taxes or those earning millions like sunaks wife or the previous health minister that are evading taxes? Make sure you attack the enemy and not the vulnerable one just because they earn above average wages

Princessglittery · 07/02/2023 23:02

hourbyhour101 · 07/02/2023 22:46

Daft question but one my friend was asking she's recently got a pay-rise of the similar amount to op and in similar situation re line income.

I suggested she dropped her hours (she's always complaining she doesn't have enough work life balance) but she said that wouldn't effected it and she would still lose CB ? Is that right ? If you can up your pension and make gift aid amount to lower your overall income ? Surely reducing your hours would also do it ?

Sorry 😵‍💫 I'm clearly being a bit thick or missing something (having never been entitled to CB) I don't know the inns and out but she says it's really screwed her !

Op I'm so sorry 💐

@hourbyhour101 no idea where your friend got that duff advice. Reducing hours reduces income. Unless her DH/DP also earns over the limit.

@Zax If you dislike legal tax avoidance start with making everyone have their salary/pay paid via PAYE, this includes all company directors, self employed etc. People who are paid all/most of their income via PAYE probably pay the most accurate tax. Then you can remove tax relief on the first £1,000 of savings interest, pension contributions, ISAs, tax free childcare etc.😂

hourbyhour101 · 07/02/2023 23:05

@Princessglittery tbf her husband passed a little while ago and he was in finance and sorted it all out. Quite literally. She's just a bit muddled at the mo

I'm glad I wasn't wrong I will go back and tell her ! Having had no experience with it I though she must have gotten it wrong.

Thank you for coming back to me. I almost didn't post as I thought someone would start spouting off about her claiming CB as fraud 😵‍💫 and my baby is teething so I just don't have the energy for that nuttery tonight

EasterIssland · 07/02/2023 23:06

hourbyhour101 · 07/02/2023 22:46

Daft question but one my friend was asking she's recently got a pay-rise of the similar amount to op and in similar situation re line income.

I suggested she dropped her hours (she's always complaining she doesn't have enough work life balance) but she said that wouldn't effected it and she would still lose CB ? Is that right ? If you can up your pension and make gift aid amount to lower your overall income ? Surely reducing your hours would also do it ?

Sorry 😵‍💫 I'm clearly being a bit thick or missing something (having never been entitled to CB) I don't know the inns and out but she says it's really screwed her !

Op I'm so sorry 💐

If she’s paid per hours or days then as long as she gets less than 52k then she’ll be better off doing that If she can afford it. It’s at the end of the financial year how much cash has she been paid and after that you do self assessment and pay it back. So if in April she’s earning over 51k then she’ll have to return some back(not much if it’s close to that figure)

There is a range around 52-55k in my opinion that is a crap range , you’ve to pay more taxes and also send some cb back. It’s better earning less 50k or so, pay less taxes and not returning cb but you take home at the end of the year similar money

hourbyhour101 · 07/02/2023 23:09

@EasterIssland thank you I will let her know. Her head a mess atm and since I'm not the strongest in finance I though I best ask Mn !

EasterIssland · 07/02/2023 23:12

There is this calculator that it might be helpful
she just needs to input the data she believes she’ll have paid by April and also if she was to reduce her hours how much would that be
www.gov.uk/child-benefit-tax-calculator

NameInUseAlreadyAgain · 07/02/2023 23:14

Princessglittery · 05/02/2023 17:57

@pinotnow

Tax year is 6 April to 5 April
Its gross earnings for the year so very basic maths - 3 months at £49k/12 x3 (£12,250) and 9 months at £52k i12 x 9 (39k) = £51,250
Deduct pension contributions 10.2% x £51,250 = £5,227 from gross pay = £46k so well under the £50k limit. Note you are taxed on £46k not £51,250.
Your employer pays 23.68% = £12,136 in pension contributions. compared to the legal minimum of 3%.
you will have banked 1/57th c£900 as a DB pension this is revalorised from April 2024 and every year after that by I think CPI.
You may find you pay slightly more pension contributions because the pay award was delayed. Far to complex for me to explain on a Sunday night.

You may think it’s a shithole country but when you ask what % employer pension contributions other non-public sector workers get and what their DC pension scheme will pay out compared to your DB scheme you may be surprised.

This is a classic example of why I believe personal/family finance and basic maths should be taught in schools.

23.68% employer contributions ! Wow! Never knew it was so high.

OP youve had a pay rise so just think of it that you’ve had 20% of the years child benefit less as a pay rise. It’s not hard to see you are still better off than you were before the pay rise. 20% of the child benefit isn’t a lot …..

Zax · 07/02/2023 23:21

Princessglittery · 07/02/2023 23:02

@hourbyhour101 no idea where your friend got that duff advice. Reducing hours reduces income. Unless her DH/DP also earns over the limit.

@Zax If you dislike legal tax avoidance start with making everyone have their salary/pay paid via PAYE, this includes all company directors, self employed etc. People who are paid all/most of their income via PAYE probably pay the most accurate tax. Then you can remove tax relief on the first £1,000 of savings interest, pension contributions, ISAs, tax free childcare etc.😂

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@Princessglittery If you dislike legal tax avoidance start with making everyone have their salary/pay paid via PAYE, this includes all company directors, self employed etc. People who are paid all/most of their income via PAYE probably pay the most accurate tax. Then you can remove tax relief on the first £1,000 of savings interest, pension contributions, ISAs, tax free childcare etc.

I totally agree with you about IR35 and other such tax avoidance measures. Tighten the lot of them up including the abolition of child benefit and child minder fees then watch the government's books balance quickly.

Zax · 07/02/2023 23:25

EasterIssland · 07/02/2023 22:54

What a stupid comment

so tell me which family will be better off. A couple earning 30k each with cb allowed or a single mum with 50k and having to return part of her cb money and paying bills on her own.

make sure you mention this on your letter to Sunak

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I don't care which ones would be better or worse off. This is a bleed on the UK's finances when every penny counts. Have kids if you can afford them otherwise wait until/if you can, just like any other major expenditure.

EasterIssland · 07/02/2023 23:25

Zax · 07/02/2023 23:21

@Princessglittery If you dislike legal tax avoidance start with making everyone have their salary/pay paid via PAYE, this includes all company directors, self employed etc. People who are paid all/most of their income via PAYE probably pay the most accurate tax. Then you can remove tax relief on the first £1,000 of savings interest, pension contributions, ISAs, tax free childcare etc.

I totally agree with you about IR35 and other such tax avoidance measures. Tighten the lot of them up including the abolition of child benefit and child minder fees then watch the government's books balance quickly.

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Wishful thinking if you think this countries main problem is paying 1000/year to those earning between 50 and 60k