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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

What about the birth mothers?

105 replies

WallaceinAnderland · 26/01/2023 15:48

Thinking about the recent news around the Scottish GRR. Is it right that a person can legally change their sex on their birth certificate? Does the woman who gave birth to that baby not have a say in this? After all, she birthed the child and registered that birth. This is a fact, is it not?

YANBU a birth certificate is an accurate record held by the state which should not be tampered with

YABU a birth certificate belongs to the baby and is nothing to the with the mother or the state

OP posts:
nothingcomestonothing · 26/01/2023 23:05

You cannot change sex however hard you dress.

RaininginDarling wins the internet today

Sushi4Dins · 26/01/2023 23:08

The birth certificate doesn’t belong to the mother, it belongs to the child. And they, as an adult, have the right to do with it as they wish.

Records of the mother’s own medical history (which belong to her) aren't impacted by this in any way. I find that to be a rather strange argument.

TheClitterati · 26/01/2023 23:39

Birth certificates record sex which is immutable.

Either they are a reliable record of sex or not.

If people can change the sex of their passport or birth certificate because of how they feel (& often change it back again to) it's no longer a record of sex.

To keep the integrity of the document it should record sex (which never changes) or have no sec marker (which seems a bit silly).

Original poster
WallaceinAnderland · 27/01/2023 00:34

Of course you could end up with the mother retaining the original birth certificate and the child getting a new one in a different sex and have two existing birth certificates for the same person with different information.

OP posts:
Bowsersfightnight · 27/01/2023 00:43

I personally don’t think you should be able to change your sex on your birth certificate, maybe an amendment of some variety but not a complete overwrite.

However not for the reason you’ve stated. Birth certificates belong to the child, not the mother.

steff13 · 27/01/2023 00:46

I can't get on board with that argument.

Regardless, if either parent should have a say, shouldn't it be the father? He's the one who provided the X or Y chromosome that determined the sex.

DarkForces · 27/01/2023 00:53

Superfrog3 · 26/01/2023 16:31

My mum doesn't own my birth certificate and I don't own my children's. It is a document about the person who has been born so when my children become adults they will be responsible for it, I am merely looking after it. Its not the mother's medical record.

Completely agree. It's my child's record of birth not mine becoming a mother.

I don't think it should be changed except if it's factually wrong but that's nothing to do with it validating my experience and more because we need accurate data about people for safeguarding and planning purposes

Lavender14 · 27/01/2023 00:57

I can understand why someone who is transgender may want to do this. They may not be openly trans and providing a birth certificate that lists a different sex at birth could cause issues for them in the workplace for example so they may fear being opened up to discrimination or prejudice amongst coworkers for example. Not all trans people are noticeably trans so they shouldn't have to share that information if they don't want it to be known. People change names etc on their birth certificates so I don't see a big difference with this. By your logic that would mean that someone in care for example couldn't change their name to protect themselves from abusive parents or to mentally seperate themselves from certain people. As a mother I don't think I have more right to my child's identity than they do, any more than I think anyone else has a right to my identity more than I do. I gave birth to a child, to a person- I don't think the rest really is mine to claim ownership of. I became a parent and the rest is my child's journey outside of me to own.

ToWhitToWhoo · 27/01/2023 01:02

I agree with some pp that you should not tamper with the original certificate, but should supplement it with any new information. After all, you don't change the original birth certificate if someone changes their name on marriage or just out of choice. We should not change original records -or where will it end?

However, I don't think that the mother should have the right to control an adult's official documents, or where will that end?

thisismynewface · 27/01/2023 01:03

Why bother recording the sex of a baby if it can be changed and the record torn up?

I also would like to change my age on my birth certificate so I can get my state pension a few years earlier, that would be nice. How do we sign up for that?

Original poster
WallaceinAnderland · 27/01/2023 01:16

People change names etc on their birth certificates so I don't see a big difference with this.

I don't think they change the name on the birth certificate do they? I thought they just get a new certificate showing their new name.

Obviously this doesn't affect me in any way but I was wondering about how changing a legal, factual document from the past might affect the feelings of women who have given birth and then have that information changed on a legal record. It just doesn't seem right.

OP posts:
JenniferWooley · 27/01/2023 08:34

@WallaceinAnderland in Scotland the name on the birth certificate is changed with a note saying "formerly known as old name" at the bottom.

My mum has my original (handwritten) birth certificate with my original surname but this is no longer valid for use as ID as it has been superseded by my birth certificate issued in 1999 with my change of surname.

I can't request a copy of my original birth certificate with my original surname from the NRS because as an official record it no longer exists.

MagpiePi · 27/01/2023 08:48

If you can change the sex on a birth certificate then you should be able to change any other 'fact' too.

So you can decide who your parents 'really' are, how old you 'really' are and where you were 'really' born, depending on your internal feelz.

Whowhatwherewhenwhynow · 27/01/2023 08:51

I believe birth certificate should be accurate and only altered if in accurate.

Gender isn’t recorded in a birth certificate is it? Only sex. Maybe a change of wording to “observed sex at birth”?

I don’t really see a need for an adult to alter their birth certificate if they transition - what does it gain them?

LovelaceBiggWither · 27/01/2023 08:56

It helps them anywhere they have to produce a birth certificate. My kid is in the process of changing her name and all her documentation. I'm absolutely fine with it as anything that makes her life easier is good with me.

It doesn't change my medical history at all and I don't understand that logic. I've never shown my maternity notes to anyone where the gender of the baby mattered. I've also never used my kids' birth certificates anywhere.

Helleofabore · 27/01/2023 09:00

No. The wording shouldn’t change. Sex is accurate.

I’d suggest what needs to change is the language used by activists. They need to stop the conflation of sex and gender . Just like they stopped the ‘wrong body’ narrative (well officially ..)

For too long this rode on the confusion some people had.

Just as magpie said. If one thing on a birth certificate changes, then everything is up to be changed. What a ridiculous thing to believe that sex was ever changeable.

And I think we might need to get away with who ‘owns’ the certificate. That too allows people to convince themselves that changes can and should happen.

The certificate is one of accurate data held by the government at the time of birth. And it should be tracked.

If a certificate of ‘information as that individual wants to publicly known’ is needed, then this should be done independently.

Whowhatwherewhenwhynow · 27/01/2023 09:04

LovelaceBiggWither · 27/01/2023 08:56

It helps them anywhere they have to produce a birth certificate. My kid is in the process of changing her name and all her documentation. I'm absolutely fine with it as anything that makes her life easier is good with me.

It doesn't change my medical history at all and I don't understand that logic. I've never shown my maternity notes to anyone where the gender of the baby mattered. I've also never used my kids' birth certificates anywhere.

Oh I agree that I really don’t see what difference it makes to the mother if as an adult a child changes their BC.
I just think it should be accurate- otherwise what is the point of having them at all?

nothingcomestonothing · 27/01/2023 13:32

If you can change the sex on a birth certificate then you should be able to change any other 'fact' too.

So you can decide who your parents 'really' are, how old you 'really' are and where you were 'really' born, depending on your internal feelz.

I like this very much. Now I can change my father's name on my birth certificate to Charles Windsor. I am a lot older than Prince William,so now I'm heir to the throne. Result!

It's a record of facts, not feelz. It shouldn't be possible to change a birth certificate (caveat for adoption, where the original birth certificate is superceded by an adoption certificate).

JessicaBrassica · 27/01/2023 13:39

Kids adopted at birth get a second birth certificate. I have one naming my natural mother and my birth name (which I accessed at 18) and a second one with my adopted name and these of my adopted parents. Why would you not be able to do something like this?

nothingcomestonothing · 27/01/2023 14:03

Adopted children get an adoption certificate which supercedes their long form original birth certificate, and a short form certificate which looks just like a short form birth certificate. This is so they can show a birth certificate as ID without having to out themselves as adopted, if they want to.

Neither a short form birth or adoption certificate has any lies on though - the short form of either doesn't have parents names on. Changing a birth certificate for gender reasons means putting lies on an official document. Which is problematic in itself, as official documents shouldn't contain lies. But it's also problematic practically - I can't think of any instance where the certificate holder being adopted would have any bearing on anything or anyone; but the certificate holder being male and having an official document saying they are female has fairly obvious potential bearing on other people.

Comedycook · 27/01/2023 14:06

I think the mother aspect of your post is a bit of a red herring. I don't think birth certificates should be changed though. If we can change sex on our birth certificate then surely we should be allowed to change the date? I want to be 21 again!

Phos · 27/01/2023 14:09

Not getting into whether you should be allowed to change sex on legal documents but responding to OP question. No, I don't think it does have to have anything to do with the birth mother. People are allowed to change their name via a deed poll whenever they like without parental consent (over a certain age, is it 18?) and the name is something the mother CHOSE. She didn't choose the sex (unless one of those rare cases where they did embryo selection) so why should this be different.

Justdontbejudgy · 27/01/2023 14:15

Why does it matter so much??

It's the person's birth certificate, not yours. They can do with it as they wish

It also not - as someone else said- a medical record

TheKeatingFive · 27/01/2023 14:26

Why does it matter so much??

Because it's a legal document and is rendered useless if it can now contain demonstrably false information.

Comedycook · 27/01/2023 14:39

It's the person's birth certificate, not yours. They can do with it as they wish

Ok...can I change the year I was born in on it because I'm in my forties but actually feel like I'm 21?