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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Exams are now virtual signalling?

146 replies

WarOfTheWolds · 20/01/2023 20:34

Details changed to protect identity, but in summary:

DS had an exam today, He's at college. The exam mark will go towards his final grade. He was tasked with answering questions on several case studies. One of the subjects of a case study was a person called Sam. Sam had they/them pronouns and Sam's sex was unclear.
DS has ASC and dyslexia. He's bright, but can tend towards rigid thinking. He said that he just kept on getting confused by the case study, having to re-read it several times to understand it because of the plural pronouns (other people were also involved in the case study, so a lot of pronouns flying about). DS also ended up editing his answers several times to try and make sure he got the pronouns right and consistent.
It seems that adding these pronouns to an exam question, when it was unnecessary to the case study
(a) was virtual signalling of woke-ness by the examiner
(b) likely to confuse students with issues like ASC and dyslexia and
(c) therefore be discriminatory towards some students - both in terms of understanding, and the extra time taken to check and re-write answers.
DS gets extra time in his exams, and usually doesn't need it all. Today he only just finished in time.

So, AIBU - inclusive pronouns are great and including them in exams is important because it raises visibility
or
YANBU - these pronouns are confusing and including them in exams is unnecessary and unhelpful for students with learning difficulties

(With thanks to the posters on my first thread attempt who pointed out my logic fail on the poll 😂🙏 )

OP posts:
Delphinium20 · 21/01/2023 04:18

SausageInCider · 20/01/2023 23:28

There is absolutely no way this is a new concept to a young person. Absolutely none.

It may not be new, but it's an unworkable concept that strains the brains of everyone who uses an exception to the grammar rules for pronouns. Even the people who claim to use 'they/them' seamlessly are either unaware that is is a conscious effort and weighs down their processing, or they are lying because they enjoy being sanctimonious.

EastLondonObserver · 21/01/2023 06:54

Zosime · 20/01/2023 22:57

where is mum?
They are at the shops.

Why would anyone say 'they are' to refer to a mother, rather than 'she is'? The speaker knows she's female and that there's only one of her.

Until recently, the only time I ever heard 'they' used to refer to a singular person was when the person's sex was unknown. 'Is there going to be a new person in Accounts?' 'Yes, they're starting on Monday.'

Region and class have a bearing on this. If you grew up speaking RP in a wealthy area of the south east and went to private school then you are less likely to have heard it.

it was totally normal for me to hear and use it.

JudgeRudy · 21/01/2023 07:47

YABU - Sorry, your son already gets extra time to accommodate his additional needs. I've noticed that many fictitious characters in learning scenarios now have a more diverse selection of names so Vladamir instead of Tom, Manjit instead of Sally etc. Should we stop using these less familiar names.
I'd imagine in a school the use of they/them pronouns isn't something new. Yes it takes a bit of getting used to and may be more challenging for some....hence the extra time.
Being able to explain, show, demonstrate understanding forms a part of all exams. If this is his problem area could you do some work with him on this rather than just listening to his frustration.

TeenDivided · 21/01/2023 08:02

YANBU They made the case study unnecessarily complicated in a manner not related to the subject.

My lower ability, dyslexic 18yo would also have been totally thrown by this. She would be wondering what she had missed in her comprehension so would have been re reading to try to work it out.

Diverse names don't impact understanding. Using plurals all over the place for a single person does. As PP have said it is confusing enough on MN when someone wants to hide the sex of their child, but in an exam on a topic unrelated to gender it is unfair.

We shouldn't be making people do unnecessary mental gymnastics in exams that are nothing to do with this topic.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 21/01/2023 08:08

Where's Mum?
They're at the shops.
Dad's gone with her, then?

That would be my response to hearing that reply. Are there really dialects in the UK that use 'they' instead of 'she' in the context above?

Exams on an unrelated subject are not the place to start teaching a new use of language. The language used in exam questions has to be as clear and unambiguous as possible. The problem with using 'they/them' pronouns for a known individual whose sex is not in doubt is that it becomes confusing very fast. Do you use plural forms of verbs or singular?

E.g.
Sam uses they/them pronouns. They is non-binary.
Sam uses they/them pronouns. They are non-binary.

I've seen both in use. Really best avoided in exams, surely?

DappledThings · 21/01/2023 08:29

Where's Mum?
They're at the shops.
Dad's gone with her, then?

That would be my response to hearing that reply. Are there really dialects in the UK that use 'they' instead of 'she' in the context above?

Indeed. I think there may be dialects where this is common use, I have seen it claimed so here but never heard it. Bit even if so it is dialect not standard English and unless it's a linguistics exam about dialect it should be written in standard English.

WineDup · 21/01/2023 09:32

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 21/01/2023 08:08

Where's Mum?
They're at the shops.
Dad's gone with her, then?

That would be my response to hearing that reply. Are there really dialects in the UK that use 'they' instead of 'she' in the context above?

Exams on an unrelated subject are not the place to start teaching a new use of language. The language used in exam questions has to be as clear and unambiguous as possible. The problem with using 'they/them' pronouns for a known individual whose sex is not in doubt is that it becomes confusing very fast. Do you use plural forms of verbs or singular?

E.g.
Sam uses they/them pronouns. They is non-binary.
Sam uses they/them pronouns. They are non-binary.

I've seen both in use. Really best avoided in exams, surely?

The thing is, gender is most definitely taught within the humanities discipline, so it isn’t unrelated. This will certainly have been discussed in class.

TeenDivided · 21/01/2023 09:39

WineDup · 21/01/2023 09:32

The thing is, gender is most definitely taught within the humanities discipline, so it isn’t unrelated. This will certainly have been discussed in class.

Show quote history

@WineDup I don't see how you can definitively say what will or won't have been covered as you don't know the BTEC he is doing.

Why do you think you know better than the OP and her son? If it had been covered he would have known, wouldn't he?

Arduenna · 21/01/2023 09:44

'They' has been used as a singular pronoun for a person of unknown gender for ages. I used it yesterday, and not in a 'woke' way.

E.g. 'I have a meeting with Alex from HR this afternoon - don't know if they are male or female but I've heard they're absolutely useless.' Perfectly easy to understand!

DappledThings · 21/01/2023 09:48

They' has been used as a singular pronoun for a person of unknown gender for ages. I used it yesterday, and not in a 'woke' way.
But the question setter would be able to decide the sex and gender of their fictional character and could have therefore been unambiguous. The ambiguity is entirely unnecessary.

Nocaloriesinchocolate · 21/01/2023 09:49

Some years go, before using “they” to refer to just one person was common, I read a report from a doctor which referred to the (female) patient living with “son and their father”. Ambiguous to me as on an old fashioned literary interpretation this implied that patient and son had the same father. Clearly not but I then had to work out whose father. Her or his would have made more sense,

WineDup · 21/01/2023 09:49

TeenDivided · 21/01/2023 09:39

@WineDup I don't see how you can definitively say what will or won't have been covered as you don't know the BTEC he is doing.

Why do you think you know better than the OP and her son? If it had been covered he would have known, wouldn't he?

Show quote history

Okay, I’d be very surprised if they hadn’t discussed gender in class. OP didn’t say they hadn’t discussed gender, just that he didn’t feel it was relevant to the case study - but by his own admission, he was very confused and didn’t understand the question. We have asked several times for clarification what the question was to ascertain whether gender is relevant, but op isn’t forthcoming with that information, nor have they answered whether gender has been studied at other points in the course. Instead, op has demonstrated their obvious biases (“woke brigade” being one)

Im shocked that any teenager would bat an eyelid at this. While they may find it difficult to keep track of; they will almost certainly have come across people who use “they” as a pronoun; be that in real life, or in coursework. Yes, it may be more challenging to keep track of; but understanding gender identity and gender issues is certainly relevant to the humanities discipline, therefore the question is valid. And as previously mentioned, the child got extra time to help level the playing field with their peers.

WineDup · 21/01/2023 09:51

DappledThings · 21/01/2023 09:48

They' has been used as a singular pronoun for a person of unknown gender for ages. I used it yesterday, and not in a 'woke' way.
But the question setter would be able to decide the sex and gender of their fictional character and could have therefore been unambiguous. The ambiguity is entirely unnecessary.

You don’t know if it’s relevant or not until op divulges what the question was actually asking.

TeenDivided · 21/01/2023 09:55

Im shocked that any teenager would bat an eyelid at this.

Despite being told that some ND people and some people with SpLD such as dyslexia do indeed find this highly confusing?

WineDup · 21/01/2023 10:04

TeenDivided · 21/01/2023 09:55

Im shocked that any teenager would bat an eyelid at this.

Despite being told that some ND people and some people with SpLD such as dyslexia do indeed find this highly confusing?

They most definitely could find it confusing, but they wouldn’t find the language unusual. Which is why they get 25% extra time. It might be worth requesting a reader and scribe too.

titchy · 21/01/2023 10:17

Im shocked that any teenager would bat an eyelid at this

Really? You're shocked that teenagers with specific learning disabilities around language processing would have difficulty in a high stress environment such as an exam?

No you're not. You're just being true to your name. Or you have absolutely no empathy and care not a jot about equality of opportunity.

WineDup · 21/01/2023 10:34

titchy · 21/01/2023 10:17

Im shocked that any teenager would bat an eyelid at this

Really? You're shocked that teenagers with specific learning disabilities around language processing would have difficulty in a high stress environment such as an exam?

No you're not. You're just being true to your name. Or you have absolutely no empathy and care not a jot about equality of opportunity.

What I mean is that I’m shocked that a teenager would be surprised at they/them pronouns being used in an exam, given that I’m pretty certain this would have been discussed during the course.

I have a learning difficulty myself which makes processing numerical data very difficult, I didn’t go to my stats exam and complain that I didn’t understand it because of the numbers. I got extra time to try to level the playing field.

Sometimes, someone’s needs means that the playing field can’t be levelled. For example, geography is very difficult for severely visually impaired/colourblind people, because a sufficiently sized map can’t be brailled, and recolouring a map can make it very difficult to see detail.

Without seeing the question it’s impossible to say whether the persons gender is relevant or not, or if it was intentionally left ambiguous.

burnoutbabe · 21/01/2023 10:38

I am sure someone posted a maths question last summer where a they was used for one person when there were 2 named people.

Now that would have thrown me in an exam. I just did a law masters and I'd be wondering if it referred to 2 people or one and if I needed to discuss both parties in relation to each crime (or even joint enterprise)

So in an exam, write clearly so it's clear who one is referred to. I know I'd lose marks if it wasn't clear which of 2 named people I was referring to (I'd discussing crimes committed)

burnoutbabe · 21/01/2023 10:46

Was in the feminism forum -pronouns in maths exams. Can't link as on mobile app

titchy · 21/01/2023 10:49

I’m pretty certain this would have been discussed during the course

You keep saying that. It's bollocks. You don't know anything of the sort. It could be an entry level exam for all you know. The college could be crap with no subject specialist. Unless it was a university level gender studies module it's highly unlikely to have been discussed at all in the classroom.

Although if it was discussed during the course that would beg the question why, given that it's so normal according to you.

titchy · 21/01/2023 10:50

For example, geography is very difficult for severely visually impaired/colourblind people, because a sufficiently sized map can’t be brailled, and recolouring a map can make it very difficult to see detail.

There are adjustments in place for visually impaired geographers...

DNBU · 21/01/2023 11:03

You’re upset about ‘they’ being used in the singular?
YABU in my opinion, sorry. Sorry your son struggled but singular ‘they’ is not a new invention.

Gilead · 21/01/2023 11:07

@titchy not bollocks, I’m afraid.
Have checked.

DNBU · 21/01/2023 11:09

(Also his course should have prepared him
for this)

WineDup · 21/01/2023 11:11

titchy · 21/01/2023 10:49

I’m pretty certain this would have been discussed during the course

You keep saying that. It's bollocks. You don't know anything of the sort. It could be an entry level exam for all you know. The college could be crap with no subject specialist. Unless it was a university level gender studies module it's highly unlikely to have been discussed at all in the classroom.

Although if it was discussed during the course that would beg the question why, given that it's so normal according to you.

I’m a teacher of humanities and we do a unit on inequality, gender is one of the things we study in that unit. So yes, completely normal. Try again.

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