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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Fucking Council Tax Single Person Penalty

354 replies

Honper · 18/01/2023 23:41

Or: why should I pay 50% more tax than my neighbours?

Council tax is a regressive abomination anyway and ofc like everyone else I resent paying it so my useless council can spend thousands on things like Tree Stories Near You or Four Foot Long Cycle Path Initiatives while failing to patch potholes so big that geese nest in them but still. As a single person I have a very particular axe to grind wrt paying 50% more TAX than someone in a couple.

I know that single life is more expensive, economies of scale yadda yadda and I already pay out proportionally more from my wages for bills, food and so on. I get that and it's not great but it's how it is.

But why is my tax liability so much greater than that of my married neighbours? I pay 50% more tax than each of them.

Come on, that's not right is it? It's not a bill. It's a tax. Single people's tax burden should not be so much more.

Or should it? AIBU?

OP posts:
ArcticSkewer · 19/01/2023 11:52

It's almost like it would be fair to judge it by, for example, income.

I wonder what we could call that tax

Newlifestartingatlast · 19/01/2023 12:15

KevinsChilli · 19/01/2023 10:22

So as a single person in my early 30s, I should pay more tax as in 40 years time I might need social care? Meanwhile the household of 4 adults next door get to pay a lot less as they might help each other in older age?

Show quote history

As I said, that is an issue with social care being paid as part of council tax. I’m not saying it’s right- personally I’d rather pay more in NI for decent social care.
but it really isn’t that much difference- your paying tax/ NI for things you don’t use- you may only go to a gp once in 5 years..but you’re paying for your neighbour who has very expensive cancer treatment, the idiot down the road who crashed and hurt himself whilst drug driving etc etc.

you can also argue married couples on a single salary through no fault of their own pay an even bigger burden of tax than a duel income family on same overall household tax. So the couple earning £70k between them will get £24k tax free allowance, child benefit, and rest taxed at 20%. But the working mum who is earning £70k with a husband that can’t work due to illness, that household only gets £12k tax free allowance, no child benefit, and a chunk of income paying 40% tax.

There are a lot of things about tax systems that penalise people vs their “neighbours”..it is extremely costly and complicated to take every household as an individual.

The Op could, for all we know, be using council subsidised gyms/pools twice per day …is that fair that is subsidised vs someone who is disabled or old and can’t use those facilities

ArcticSkewer · 19/01/2023 12:18

It's 57% on social care alone

Why is it fair that a single person has to pay 3/4 of a two person household for this?

Fucking Council Tax Single Person Penalty
LastOfTheChristmasWine · 19/01/2023 12:20

but it really isn’t that much difference- your paying tax/ NI for things you don’t use- you may only go to a gp once in 5 years..but you’re paying for your neighbour who has very expensive cancer treatment, the idiot down the road who crashed and hurt himself whilst drug driving etc etc.

The difference is that I know if I got cancer, or was in a car crash, I'd get NHS care free at the point of use.

If I develop MS and need social care however, I'll be expected to pay for it myself in full because I am a homeowner/ have assets over £23k - even though I've been paying the social care portion of council tax all my life.

I'm reasonably happy to pay towards services I don't currently use so long as I feel confident they'll be there if and when I do need them.

UseOfWeapons · 19/01/2023 12:24

Dreamstate · 19/01/2023 11:27

Isn't it funny though, a single child free person does not get any other tax break really other than the 25% discount on council tax.

Every time a budget is announced its always help for families, vulnerable, those on benefits or if your married.

But there is never anything specific for single childfree people.

So god forbid we have one moan about the only help we get and every other group comes along and tells us to basically shut up.

👏Absolutely! Just because I’m single and unable to have a child, it doesn’t mean I don’t need any help. All the adverts at the moment about ‘Every household is entitled to help from the government with the COL crisis ‘. I looked. Every household apart from mine, apparently…and I’m not a high earner.

Dreamstate · 19/01/2023 12:26

Newlifestartingatlast · 19/01/2023 12:15

As I said, that is an issue with social care being paid as part of council tax. I’m not saying it’s right- personally I’d rather pay more in NI for decent social care.
but it really isn’t that much difference- your paying tax/ NI for things you don’t use- you may only go to a gp once in 5 years..but you’re paying for your neighbour who has very expensive cancer treatment, the idiot down the road who crashed and hurt himself whilst drug driving etc etc.

you can also argue married couples on a single salary through no fault of their own pay an even bigger burden of tax than a duel income family on same overall household tax. So the couple earning £70k between them will get £24k tax free allowance, child benefit, and rest taxed at 20%. But the working mum who is earning £70k with a husband that can’t work due to illness, that household only gets £12k tax free allowance, no child benefit, and a chunk of income paying 40% tax.

There are a lot of things about tax systems that penalise people vs their “neighbours”..it is extremely costly and complicated to take every household as an individual.

The Op could, for all we know, be using council subsidised gyms/pools twice per day …is that fair that is subsidised vs someone who is disabled or old and can’t use those facilities

Show quote history

And how many other benefits or tax breaks or help do single childfree people get that other groups like families etc don't get.

Go ahead and list them.....

Oh wait you won't be able to because we get fuck all just that council tax discount.

Watch the next budget and then come back and tell me where the single childfree person was given any additional help from the government...you won't be able to.

Perfect28 · 19/01/2023 12:29

Yabu. CT is paid for the whole house, so a house with 5 adults in will get an even better deal than couples. It's just how it is.

Rebel2023 · 19/01/2023 12:31

Dreamstate · 19/01/2023 11:27

Isn't it funny though, a single child free person does not get any other tax break really other than the 25% discount on council tax.

Every time a budget is announced its always help for families, vulnerable, those on benefits or if your married.

But there is never anything specific for single childfree people.

So god forbid we have one moan about the only help we get and every other group comes along and tells us to basically shut up.

That. They always say they will help the lowest paid, vulnerable etc
I have medical issues, too well to claim PIP, too ill to work more than my 40hrs a week. Not entitled to anything but I'm on min wage so low pay.
I could claim if I had children but I can't afford to have children...

Dreamstate · 19/01/2023 12:34

Let me amend my earlier comment to say every other group comes along to tell us to shut up , stick their hand out and want more of your money to help them!

nettie434 · 19/01/2023 12:51

Everything about council tax is unfair, from the single person discount right through to the valuations based on property prices in 1991.

This year, Kensington and Chelsea Band H council tax is £2,728.94. In Rochdale it is £4,220.52. How much more is a Band H property in Chelsea worth compared with a Band H property in Rochdale? Why should Rochdale residents pay so much more than residents of Chelsea, a large proportion of whom will be people with off shore bank accounts who probably don't even pay UK income tax.

It's not even as if council tax brings in enough income for councils to enable them to provide universal services like parks or leisure centres or means tested services like social care.

The Lib Dems did propose a local income tax instead. That's preferable but not perfect as income tax is not truly progressive.

ArcticSkewer · 19/01/2023 13:02

That's very true.
Poor boroughs with many demands on lg health and social care have to pay much more per head than rich boroughs

WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll · 19/01/2023 13:26

This year, Kensington and Chelsea Band H council tax is £2,728.94. In Rochdale it is £4,220.52. How much more is a Band H property in Chelsea worth compared with a Band H property in Rochdale? Why should Rochdale residents pay so much more than residents of Chelsea, a large proportion of whom will be people with off shore bank accounts who probably don't even pay UK income tax.

They need to get a certain amount of money in, and there will be loads of Band G & H houses in K&C, but very few in Rochdale.

For argument's sake, if there were 1,000 homes in each area and total CT income of £1,000,000 were required, that would mean that an 'average' Band D house was charged £1,000, with A-C charged lower than this (being subbed by the average) and E-H charged higher (subbing the lower ones). In a poorer area, there will be far more homes in lower bands than in higher ones, so the total cost will need to be recovered from that majority, one way or another.

However, if the lowest banding you tend to get in a very affluent area is, say Band F, that moves the average banding to Band G, thus Band G only needs to pay the average required £1,000 - as there are (virtually) no cheaper properties that they need to subsidise.

WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll · 19/01/2023 13:27

*with A-C charged lower than this (being subbed by the average)

should say (being subbed by the higher band-payers)

LaurieFairyCake · 19/01/2023 13:54

We've got one of the cheapest council taxes in the country - it's London so a really built up area and of course many more households to pay for it

DonnaBanana · 19/01/2023 14:07

Forget all the mucking around. The government should work out how much it costs to provide everything we need and then set the income tax rate to whatever raises that money. That is too logical though.

fitzwilliamdarcy · 19/01/2023 14:12

That. They always say they will help the lowest paid, vulnerable etc

Yep, they mean the lowest paid or vulnerable with kids. Single adults can live on fresh air apparently.

I remember being truly in poverty (as in I had £5 per week to live on) and I was working with people getting more than my monthly salary in benefits related to their children. And they still complained!

Willyoujustbequiet · 19/01/2023 14:13

Look at it the other way

Its a tax on property. You have the same asset as them so you pay the same tax. They could argue they only have 50% each of what you own.

Memeagain · 19/01/2023 14:15

You just sound so bitter

Ginmonkeyagain · 19/01/2023 14:23

Living alone s a luxury that many cannot afford. I have never lived alone - I went from family to university to house sharing until I moved in with Mr Monkey at the age of 31.

Houses with multiple adults living in them tend to be made up of lower income, asset poor people for that reason - which is why the Poll Tax was so reviled. It favored older people with large assets and absolutely screwed young house sharers and low income multi generation families.

And of course Council tax is not just about bins - if it was I would be getting a very bad deal - our block of 64 flats has four large bins that are emptied once a week (no food or garden waste collection) - between us we probably pay over £70k a year in council tax.

Alexandra2001 · 19/01/2023 14:25

Yes agree OP.

Govt always banging on about there is no money... yet reform of CT would raise billions.. multi million pound properties get a tax discount, average priced ones pay far more.

You d have to also have allowances for poorer folk in expensive houses but whats happen now is the super rich pay proportionately less.... yet have far more money... bit like the energy subsidy they get too.

Ginmonkeyagain · 19/01/2023 14:29

Council Tax reevaluation is the Pandora's box no one wants to open!

Rebel2023 · 19/01/2023 14:43

Ginmonkeyagain · 19/01/2023 14:23

Living alone s a luxury that many cannot afford. I have never lived alone - I went from family to university to house sharing until I moved in with Mr Monkey at the age of 31.

Houses with multiple adults living in them tend to be made up of lower income, asset poor people for that reason - which is why the Poll Tax was so reviled. It favored older people with large assets and absolutely screwed young house sharers and low income multi generation families.

And of course Council tax is not just about bins - if it was I would be getting a very bad deal - our block of 64 flats has four large bins that are emptied once a week (no food or garden waste collection) - between us we probably pay over £70k a year in council tax.

But people should be able to
How many people stay in abusive relationships because they can't afford to get out?
Being able to afford a small apartment or house by yourself shouldn't be an unreasonable thing, I don't want to house share at 40

KevinsChilli · 19/01/2023 14:49

As much as people might think living alone is a luxury.... Why does that mean we have to pay more tax pp as we currently do? People say it's a property tax... so why do students not pay it? Why is it different all over the country?

Q2C4 · 19/01/2023 15:04

DonnaBanana · 19/01/2023 14:07

Forget all the mucking around. The government should work out how much it costs to provide everything we need and then set the income tax rate to whatever raises that money. That is too logical though.

One problem being that the very wealthy tend not to pay that much income tax (their assets are more likely to either be squirrelled into tax efficient structures and/or generate capital gains).

Ginmonkeyagain · 19/01/2023 15:17

@Rebel2023 Yes but in reality it hasn't been affordable for a lot of medium and low income single people ever. Living alone or in a romantic relationship aren't the only available household compositions. Anyway C/tax is a bit of red herring, for most working age single people it is housing costs that are the killer. that is why I house shared until my early thirties.