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Original poster

Should we deliberately recruit more male teachers and nurses in order to raise pay?

54 replies

yubgummy · 07/01/2023 16:22

Female-dominated professions in general have lower pay than men's.

The direction of causality is disputed, obviously.

But surely it can't hurt to try to bulk up the numbers of men a bit and see if it increases the prestige and then pay of the profession a bit? If nothing else, a whole bunch of big burly men on the picket lines would probably do wonders for the cause 😉

OP posts:
Original poster
yubgummy · 07/01/2023 19:39

Assume in the latter case that there's a slight trickle-down effect, i.e. men get the best pay in the top leadership positions, but they force the salaries higher even in the junior positions because they have to spend at least some time climbing those ranks.

Genuinely curious. I've always worked in male-dominated professions

OP posts:
Nimbostratus100 · 07/01/2023 19:39

yubgummy · 07/01/2023 19:36

If you're in one of these professions, would you prefer (assuming these are the only two options):

  • your profession stays female-dominated with mostly women at the top, but overall salaries are lower
  • your profession becomes male-dominated with mostly men at the top, but overall salaries are higher

Realistically, the primary sector tries very hard to recruit men.

ANd what we end up with is a female dominated sector with mostly men at the top

ClaudiusTheGod · 07/01/2023 19:41

IntentionalError · 07/01/2023 17:17

Teachers have always been notorious for constantly moaning about their salaries and their workloads and their hours and their pupils and their pensions and their employers and even their holidays, and at secondary level the proportions of men to women have always been fairly even. It’s a teacher thing, not a gender thing.

Sigh

Phineyj · 07/01/2023 19:48

OP are you aware there's already a gender pay gap in teaching and an even bigger gender pay gap in teachers' pensions? And a gender pay gap in head teacher pay?

It's already a low paid female dominated profession with men overrepresented at the top.

Willyoujustbequiet · 07/01/2023 19:55

I get what you are saying but both professions are paid more than the army recruits who may be called in to cover for them and they are overwhelmingly male....

Phineyj · 07/01/2023 20:25

I don't think it's comparable. Army get food and board, training etc but privates certainly aren't paid the same as an average teacher. The risk level is rather different too!

WorkHardPlayHard1 · 07/01/2023 20:26

Thedaysthatremain · 07/01/2023 16:37

Or we could just start treating women like they are humans.

More like it!!

UndertheCedartree · 07/01/2023 20:30

Babyroobs · 07/01/2023 17:13

In my 30 years of Nursing experience it always seemed to be the male nurses who made their way up to the higher band jobs more quickly anyway, so by increasing more male nurses you'd probably make it even harder for female nurses to get promoted/ climb the ladder.

I agree with this. I've seen this too.

saraclara · 07/01/2023 20:37

While make primary teachers have to consciously make sure that they are never alone with a child, it's always going to be too risky a job for most men to consider.

There was a thread a few weeks ago about a male primary teacher who'd been accused of sexual assault, said it had never happened, and was in a bad way. The OP was a friend who was worried about him wondering what to say to him. Virtually every single person in that thread aimed his guilt, was infuriated that his friend should even think about being concerned for him, and if anyone suggested that he might not be guilty and that the young child might have misinterpreted an action, they were accused of facilitating paedophilia.

After reading that thread, I wouldn't recommend primary teaching to any man.

saraclara · 07/01/2023 20:37

Make= male

saraclara · 07/01/2023 20:39

Ffs. So many typos and autocorrects in my post.

The OP was a friend who was worried about him AND wondering what to say to him. Virtually every single person in that thread ASSUMED his guilt...

pompomdaisy · 07/01/2023 20:41

Jesus like they haven't been trying a gazillion initiatives to get men into nursing for the past 50 years!

XenoBitch · 07/01/2023 20:42

You can't recruit people who are not applying to start with.

Nimbostratus100 · 07/01/2023 20:48

saraclara · 07/01/2023 20:37

While make primary teachers have to consciously make sure that they are never alone with a child, it's always going to be too risky a job for most men to consider.

There was a thread a few weeks ago about a male primary teacher who'd been accused of sexual assault, said it had never happened, and was in a bad way. The OP was a friend who was worried about him wondering what to say to him. Virtually every single person in that thread aimed his guilt, was infuriated that his friend should even think about being concerned for him, and if anyone suggested that he might not be guilty and that the young child might have misinterpreted an action, they were accused of facilitating paedophilia.

After reading that thread, I wouldn't recommend primary teaching to any man.

female teacher can also never be alone with a child

saraclara · 07/01/2023 20:56

Nimbostratus100 · 07/01/2023 20:48

female teacher can also never be alone with a child

Show quote history

That's not true, unless an individual school has such a rule.

Given the shortage of teachers and TAs, there simply aren't enough people around in a school to be able to avoid that. If a kid throws up, or has a minor accident that involves going to the medical room, the chance of finding another member of staff to accompany you and them there and remain with you both, is remote.

And that's without going into all the other circumstances that might find you (as a teacher or a TA) alone with a child, like something as simple as a child having forgotten something and coming back into the classroom when the others have left.

As a female teacher I have never given those situations a thought. As a male teacher, I absolutely would.

SerendipityJane · 07/01/2023 20:58

Thedaysthatremain · 07/01/2023 16:37

Or we could just start treating women like they are humans.

What a stupid idea. You'll be giving them the vote next.

Nimbostratus100 · 07/01/2023 21:00

saraclara · 07/01/2023 20:56

That's not true, unless an individual school has such a rule.

Given the shortage of teachers and TAs, there simply aren't enough people around in a school to be able to avoid that. If a kid throws up, or has a minor accident that involves going to the medical room, the chance of finding another member of staff to accompany you and them there and remain with you both, is remote.

And that's without going into all the other circumstances that might find you (as a teacher or a TA) alone with a child, like something as simple as a child having forgotten something and coming back into the classroom when the others have left.

As a female teacher I have never given those situations a thought. As a male teacher, I absolutely would.

Show quote history

no one adult should ever be alone with a child, that is absolute, across all schools, all ages all settings etc.

If you are in such a situation as described above, then you have the door propped open and another adult checking in

If you are not doing that, then your legal insurance is invalid. Its very basic school procedure

VladmirsPoutine · 07/01/2023 21:10

I see your point but the issue is a lot deeper than that - many boys and subsequently men just don't really see themselves in a caring profession. Raise the pay and you'll attract a bigger pool of willing people.

saraclara · 07/01/2023 21:16

If you are in such a situation as described above, then you have the door propped open and another adult checking in

The door propped open is a given. But it is absolutely impossible not to be alone in a room with a child on occasion, unless you have multiple TAs.

Nimbostratus100 · 07/01/2023 21:18

saraclara · 07/01/2023 21:16

If you are in such a situation as described above, then you have the door propped open and another adult checking in

The door propped open is a given. But it is absolutely impossible not to be alone in a room with a child on occasion, unless you have multiple TAs.

then another adult needs to know you are there, and be checking in

It is no different for a woman than it is for a man,

Pumperthepumper · 07/01/2023 21:20

AclowncalledAlice · 07/01/2023 17:11

His Uni tutor.

Show quote history

Bollocks.

saraclara · 07/01/2023 21:22

It is no different for a woman than it is for a man,

Theoretically it isn't, but in reality, men are far more at risk from false or mistaken accusations. So they have to be far more careful, and may decide that it's just not worth it, as they simply don't feel safe, or that they would be supported.

VioletaDelValle · 07/01/2023 21:25

Bollocks

😂😂 tbh that was my first thought

No way would anyone get away with that at my university

Pumperthepumper · 07/01/2023 21:27

saraclara · 07/01/2023 21:22

It is no different for a woman than it is for a man,

Theoretically it isn't, but in reality, men are far more at risk from false or mistaken accusations. So they have to be far more careful, and may decide that it's just not worth it, as they simply don't feel safe, or that they would be supported.

The risk of false accusations is very, very low. It’s low enough not to be a consideration- it’s much more likely that men see teaching as a women’s subject.

weegiemum · 07/01/2023 21:28

My ds is a nursing student in first year. He reckons there's about 10% male students on his course (his estimation so might be wrong!) at his uni.

He's been enticed into nursing in a good way - left school at the start of the first lockdown in 2020 with no idea what he wanted to do, got a job doing home care (baths, dressing, medication, food) and loved it so applied for this year and got in. But he freely admits that one of the plus points is he's likely to get promoted sooner as he's male. It's even been commented on in lectures, and most of the senior nurses who have come to talk to them are men.

I'm a teacher (well was, a long time ago!) in secondary and even then it was mostly male at the top, even in pastoral care which I always felt wasn't right, it should be balanced.