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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Was this unprofessional from the nurses?

128 replies

twatmas · 18/12/2022 16:14

Was in A&E last night / this morning for a horrible SVT run.
My veins are shot to pieces from years of bloods / cannulas / chemo so I know I'm hard to bleed.

Paramedics tried twice in the back of my hands but failed. (No blame there, I'm aware I'm hard to get a line into)
Got to hospital, and a nurse came along. I usually need the ultrasound to get a line in. I was happy for her to try a couple of times before asking for a machine. I did mention to her they usually need the US.

Anyway, after 5 goes in various different places (going over my already swollen sore hands from the paramedics) I started to get restless as it was hurting. I asked her if she could get an US machine as it was now hurting and I don't want to be prodded for the sake of it. She said no, she will keep trying.

6,7,8 goes, I was now bleeding out and my arms and hands were really painful blue. I was crying at this point as my chest was hurting and I was being poked and prodded from every direction. Going over repeatedly battered veins hurts. I said this to her, I apologised for being difficult to bleed but 9 times is too much. The nurse then said 'you've got to be brave, it's only a cannula, what do you want me to do?' And just shrugged.

This comment is what's pissed me off. I don't have a phobia of needles. I have had probably thousands at this point of those bastard things. I've had chemotherapy. I don't need to be brave. I don't need someone poking me 9 times. I need an US machine which could've saved so much time and pain.

I refused to have her try a 10th. A senior nurse came in quite disgruntled that I didn't let the previous nurse try again. He said to me 'well you've been through a lot but we need to get a cannula in.' Well yes, I agree. But not at the expense of battered and bruised arms. He tried for the 10th time, and managed to get the cannula in between my wrist and crook of my arm. Right in the middle of my arm. It fucking hurt, but it was in. I apologised again and thanked them, but they just seemed so annoyed with me.
This is NOT a nurse bashing thread. I have the utmost respect for them, but 10 attempts was horrible and I was made to feel like a wimp.
AIBU? Or is this standard practice?

OP posts:
Original poster
twatmas · 18/12/2022 16:46

PinkDaffodil2 · 18/12/2022 16:38

That sounds horrible for you and not at all sympathetic of the nurse.
However - were you still in SVT? If so I can understand why the would have been keen to get access asap rather that wait to find a member of staff free to get a machine, find a machine (not always as easy as it should be), find someone trained to use it for cannulas etc.
From the sound of things A&Es are way beyond normal winter pressures right now and nobody seems to be getting an acceptable level of care - that’s terrible for patients but also terrible for the staff and I’m not surprised some are not at their best (doesn’t make it ok how they spoke to you still!).

I was triaged about about 20 minutes after arrival and my heart rate on the obs machine was coming down. It was at 141 when I saw it last before they started to cannulate.

I understand sometimes it's an urgent thing. It was just so painful and I was made to feel a bit dim as if I didnt know what I was talking about. I feel for the nurses as they're burnt out. This was just awful though. My arms and hands are in pieces now with blue lumps everywhere. Chemo is a fucker for damaging veins. :(

OP posts:
DancingSober · 18/12/2022 16:46

Yanbu. My sister is a Dr and she was furious when I told her a nurse had tried about 6 times to take blood from me. I haven't been through what you have, but I am difficult to get blood out of. My sister said three should be the maximum before they get help from someone else.

NeverDropYourMooncup · 18/12/2022 16:49

Could it be possible the the ultrasound wasn't working or was already in use with several patients urgently needing it after the current patient was done?

Ems369 · 18/12/2022 16:49

Definitely complain! Im not a nurse but I can cannulate, in our department we only have 2 goes before we get someone else to have a go!

ColinRobinsonsfamiliar · 18/12/2022 16:50

So sorry you had this OP but to be fair, SVT is a life threatening rhythm and priority is to get a line in wherever and however they can as quickly as they can for reasons of resuscitation as you know.

The nurses will have been quite anxious about doing this for you.

In the nurses mind was probably the worst case scenario for you, having gone home after trying desperately to resuscitate a young person and failing, I can’t tell you how utterly utterly devastating this is for the nurse involved.

So, they will be completely focussed on getting that line in, in case of collapse, right in front of their eyes and no venous access.

Again, so sorry that you suffered like this, but I know what will have been going through their mind in a busy A&E.

Doormatnomore · 18/12/2022 16:52

My veins are easy to find but collapse instantly (or something) so I need the pink butterfly needle, which I think is the kids one. I always ask for it and it’s amazing how often I’m told that I don’t. I’ll let them have a go with the regular one and then I’m done. I’m not certain but I think once I was asked to look away so they could use the smaller one. I always apologise though, and I’m not sure what for.

Blueyismylife · 18/12/2022 16:54

I feel your pain. I had 4 different people try to get a cannula in to me in October and it took 13 attempts. The pain is unreal and I kept saying how painful it was and how I couldn't carry on. I've made a complaint to PALS about that amongst other failings in my treatment. Im sorry you went through that too.

Pinkbluebells · 18/12/2022 16:55

A nurse kept trying to adjust a drip in my son's arm and she kept hurting him. He was under five. I just told her it was obvious she didn't have a clue what she was doing and she should find somebody who did rather than bungling on. I must have looked fierce. The replacement nurse who turned up managed it in a flash.

strawberrysea · 18/12/2022 16:56

ClaudiusTheGod · 18/12/2022 16:30

They’d never have done this to a man and you’re not being unreasonable.

Agreed.
This really isn't on.

rowanbush · 18/12/2022 16:57

That's dreadful treatment and unprofessional.

I'm the same but I've been mostly lucky that I've had lovely, professional medical staff who've managed somehow and while putting me at ease.

tickticksnooze · 18/12/2022 16:58

That is not acceptable and those individuals do not deserve respect, they deserve consequences.

Oblomov22 · 18/12/2022 16:59

I had similar last weekend. So completely understand. Their attitude was disgraceful.

Againstmachine · 18/12/2022 17:02

ClaudiusTheGod · 18/12/2022 16:30

They’d never have done this to a man and you’re not being unreasonable.

Stop it with this utter rubbish it happens to men as well so wind your neck it it's pathetic.

JoanOfAllTrades · 18/12/2022 17:05

@twatmas

I’m a nurse. YANBU. Please do put a complaint in because although policy does vary from Trust to Trust, best practice is 2 tries then call the IVCNS down to perform the cannulation, or if there is no IVCNS (intravenous clinical nurse specialist, who will trained to insert all manner of IV, not only cannulas) then either a consultant anaesthetist or at the very least, a senior anaesthetist.

Given what you’ve outlined here, regardless of the nurse’s personal feelings, she should have got hold of that rarer than hens teeth USS, rather than subjecting her patient, for whom she has overall responsibility, to needless attacks attempts at insertion.

Please tell me that she used a fresh cannula each time?

IV sites are the biggest source of HAI that there are, with IDC/IMC’s next on the list. And she should have been using a sterile field along with an ANTT as much as possible. As well as using alcohol hand rub in between touching something then trying again.

Each attempt should have been documented separately but I’m guessing, from what you’ve said here that nothing of note will be added apart from that a cannula was inserted.

The problem with having all these attempts are that you are at an increased risk of your IVC site becoming infected, painful, erythemic, your venous cord becoming palpable, induration, swelling, dishcarge, pus, pyrexia and tenderness. But not all at once or all of those.

I hope that your site was inspected regularly and if you are still in hospital, it should be inspected at least every shift, removed after 72 hours and inspected for 24 hours post-removal.

If you are not still in hospital, and you get anything remotely resembling what I’ve detailed above, go to A&E, explain about the IVC and what happened and get your arm checked.

Honestly? Idgaf about the nurse, her senior or their jobs. To me, they have broken the number one rule of nursing which is to protect and look after your patient.

I hope you at least got their first names and please make sure that you write to the chief exec of the NHS Trust that you come under, as well as the DON at the hospital you attended.

rowanbush · 18/12/2022 17:06

ClaudiusTheGod · 18/12/2022 16:30

They’d never have done this to a man and you’re not being unreasonable.

Agree.

justgettingthroughtheday · 18/12/2022 17:07

Sadly sometimes you do have to be assertive about what you will and won't tolerate. I know I'm difficult to cannulate so they get two goes. If they can't do it I decline until they find someone competent. They also get two goes. Then I'm done!

Gh12345 · 18/12/2022 17:07

Yes she was being insensitive to you and even after 5 goes, the anxiety and needles would have got me up a height

YaWeeFurryBastard · 18/12/2022 17:08

Againstmachine · 18/12/2022 17:02

Stop it with this utter rubbish it happens to men as well so wind your neck it it's pathetic.

Show quote history

It’s really nowhere near as common for men’s concerns to be dismissed in a medical setting. Stop minimising women’s experiences, it’s pathetic.

Original poster
twatmas · 18/12/2022 17:13

JoanOfAllTrades · 18/12/2022 17:05

@twatmas

I’m a nurse. YANBU. Please do put a complaint in because although policy does vary from Trust to Trust, best practice is 2 tries then call the IVCNS down to perform the cannulation, or if there is no IVCNS (intravenous clinical nurse specialist, who will trained to insert all manner of IV, not only cannulas) then either a consultant anaesthetist or at the very least, a senior anaesthetist.

Given what you’ve outlined here, regardless of the nurse’s personal feelings, she should have got hold of that rarer than hens teeth USS, rather than subjecting her patient, for whom she has overall responsibility, to needless attacks attempts at insertion.

Please tell me that she used a fresh cannula each time?

IV sites are the biggest source of HAI that there are, with IDC/IMC’s next on the list. And she should have been using a sterile field along with an ANTT as much as possible. As well as using alcohol hand rub in between touching something then trying again.

Each attempt should have been documented separately but I’m guessing, from what you’ve said here that nothing of note will be added apart from that a cannula was inserted.

The problem with having all these attempts are that you are at an increased risk of your IVC site becoming infected, painful, erythemic, your venous cord becoming palpable, induration, swelling, dishcarge, pus, pyrexia and tenderness. But not all at once or all of those.

I hope that your site was inspected regularly and if you are still in hospital, it should be inspected at least every shift, removed after 72 hours and inspected for 24 hours post-removal.

If you are not still in hospital, and you get anything remotely resembling what I’ve detailed above, go to A&E, explain about the IVC and what happened and get your arm checked.

Honestly? Idgaf about the nurse, her senior or their jobs. To me, they have broken the number one rule of nursing which is to protect and look after your patient.

I hope you at least got their first names and please make sure that you write to the chief exec of the NHS Trust that you come under, as well as the DON at the hospital you attended.

Thank you so much for your lovely reply.

No, she didn't use a fresh cannula each time. She used 3. 2 pink ones if I remember correctly, then the other nurse he used a blue one when he got it finally in on the 10th go.

The point I was most upset was she she was putting the canna in Willy nilly, same needle 3 times. It just looked like she was going anywhere just to get a vein. (I appreciate this probably wasn't the case)

Thank you so much for the advice, I really appreciate it.

OP posts:
JellyfishandShells · 18/12/2022 17:20

I had a particularly nasty SVT episode that wasn’t responding to usual reversion so the decision was made to use adenosine. The very junior doctor couldn’t get the cannula in ( ignoring my ‘try the back of my hand, really’) called someone else after 3 tries, then it began to be like the Story of the Giant Turnip, with increasingly senior staff being called to try and get access and mutterings of theatre and cut down.

The adenosine didn’t work on the first try, cue the cardiac team, and then it did. And the crowd around me melted away, leaving me pincushioned and bruising but alive.

Had the ablation the following week.

Oblomov22 · 18/12/2022 17:21

No. I never had a fresh needle. 4 attempts the first time. Same needle. 5 the second. Same needle.

Original poster
twatmas · 18/12/2022 17:23

JellyfishandShells · 18/12/2022 17:20

I had a particularly nasty SVT episode that wasn’t responding to usual reversion so the decision was made to use adenosine. The very junior doctor couldn’t get the cannula in ( ignoring my ‘try the back of my hand, really’) called someone else after 3 tries, then it began to be like the Story of the Giant Turnip, with increasingly senior staff being called to try and get access and mutterings of theatre and cut down.

The adenosine didn’t work on the first try, cue the cardiac team, and then it did. And the crowd around me melted away, leaving me pincushioned and bruising but alive.

Had the ablation the following week.

I'm sorry you went through that. :(

I've got a telephone appointment tomorrow with the arrhythmia clinic for EP study / ablation. Did it work for you?

OP posts:
OrlandointheWilderness · 18/12/2022 17:24

I've just done my cannulation training. It's been drummed into us that you get 2 attempts then someone else takes over.

JenniferBarkley · 18/12/2022 17:24

That's awful OP. I haven't had your history but I do have difficult veins. On the day of my ELCS (i.e. fasting) it took 8 attempts for one blood test and a cannula. It was awful and I was black and blue the next day.

The difference is that it was different people trying, they used ultrasound, were caring and sympathetic so I didn't mind. The treatment you had wasn't right.

OrlandointheWilderness · 18/12/2022 17:27

She didn't use a fresh needle each time?!? That's horrendous practice! This needs escalation.