Can a 4 yo be ‘nasty’?

[Cinnabomb]

My friends now 4 year old seems to be a nasty, vicious little boy. I know I shouldn’t think of a child that way, so here is my question - is it possible for a child that young to be nasty/ vicious by nature or is it just parenting? He has been like it since about age 2.5 as long as we’ve known them, but toddler bolshyness seems to have made way to targeted attacks. Examples-
actively seeking out children to hurt them (eg in a park/ soft play going to find ‘Toby’ and when he does pushes him to ground and hits him until he is pulled off.

• frequently hurts other children but has a really nasty look on his face when doing so and seems to chose ways that inflict high damage eg Tries to slam childrens arms in doors, stamp on their fingers, push downstairs, stab their eyes with sticks, etc usually unprovoked

I guess im not describing it very well but it’s just he has a really vicious look on his face when he does it. I currently have a 2.5yo who is no dream and often have to make sure she isn’t too rough, but it seems standard toddler over enthusiasm and not horrible intent. Similarly we had another friends child who was a pusher but again he didn’t seem nasty when doing so. I could understand the odd hitting incident if someone snatched a toy or something but this just seems a bit odd. He is nice to his brothers tho?

parent of this child does tell him off but has multiple kids/ is usually distracted so tends to yell things vaguely from a distance. Doesn’t ever go and get him/ intervene etc.

doesnt seem like to have any obvious ND traits, parents not concerned. Other siblings don’t do this. Very very much doubt any abuse at home (as much as you can guess these things).

I'm always fascinated by the whole nature/nurture thing. I know a child very similar to some described on here - appears to take pleasure in deliberately inflicting pain, is very calculated and obviously knows it's wrong as he will attempt to do it when no one is looking (but I watch him like a hawk when we see him so he never gets a chance with my DC). The interesting thing is, he has two siblings - a brother and sister - who are absolutely lovely. Responsible, kind, friendly. They have the same parents, fairly standard age gaps so not massively apart in age and have all attended the same school. Yet this one in particular is really mean and spiteful. I know you can't tell much from socialising, but the parents seem good - kind but firm and have clear boundaries. I always wonder how their first two ended up so lovely and their youngest is so different!

@TulipCat ah you may have the answer! Didn't see your post before posting mine.

Yes but usually, most of the time,, because they are unhappy children whose attachment is not secure/emotional needs not being met and so they are angry and this comes out as being nasty (and it came be nastiness) to others where they spot the opportunity

Attachment difficulties get hardly any focus in our society and its so damaging. Empathy has to be demonstrated and taught to be learned, even if a child already has a tendency to be more assertive/strong/boisterous than other children, its about how it can be channelled.

Yes exactly this is the difference that I am talking about - he seems driven to hurt for the sake of inflicting pain rather than lashing out for getting attention or a toy back etc

also re the doing it for attention from parents - often he tries to do it secretly/ making sure parents aren’t looking etc so I dont think it’s that.

mothers have said at age 4 they don’t know right from wrong- he seems to tho?

Yes, some can be, although inherently unkind children are rare. I work with preschoolers, most have reason for difficult behaviours. These children and families can be support to learn empathy and kindness etc but now and then you come across one that hurts for what seems like just the fun of it. They get genuine enjoyment for behaviour that hurts or damages. These are often bright children too with nothing obvious in their family background to cause it. No amount of support seems to make an impact. I often wonder how they've progressed as they grow up.

There was a child who went to nursery with my eldest daughter (long before I worked with children myself) and she was always the one to be pushing others or stamping on snails. At secondary school she was the main bully in their year.

Yes kids can be the full spectrum of being humans. Their initial temperament is far from fixed though and life circumstances heavily influence life long behaviours.

Kids who find being cruel to other children as an initial strategy need the be very heavily taught out of these strategies which they are using to get their needs met. That often doesn’t happen though as most parents struggle to deal with that level of complex issue in young children.

Just out of interest how do you parent them out of it? Very gentle? Very strict?

I think this is really hits the nail on the head and I can think of several families where this applies.

I don't think you are born nasty, cruelty is learnt.
There are mean 4 year olds but it is often a reaction to something.
When parents are shit at parenting, sometimes due to their own childhood or mental health issues, some children respond by hurting themselves (self harm, eating disorder, no self confidence, withdrawal ...etc) or lash out by hurting others, vandalism, bullying. Two sides to a coin, so the likelihood is the parent or carer of the 4 year old that is the nasty one.

DS is 14 now but from reception to year 6 he had a girl in his class who needed lots of attention on her and could subtly upset people but would instantly cry when told off and then do the same again - the teachers really struggled to deal with her behaviour.

She’s not much different now. Her mum is a teaches at her school and even she struggles with her in the classroom. She’s not a nice person.

They can yeah I believe. I know 2 little girls a year apart. The older one is lovely, perfectly normal. The younger one is really quite spiteful, as you say the look on her face. She watches her 'victim' s face to see their reaction when she's being malicious and thats what I find really unnerving. She's 9 so it's no longer physical she seems to have learnt to be verbally vicious in quite a subtle way so she evades being outrightly 'naughty' and receiving punishment. But I've still had to take a step back. My kids are annoying but not nasty or sly.

4 year olds can definitely be nasty, those who are genuinely nasty however are vanishingly small in number, the vast majority will be down to parenting decisions.

Either lack of parenting ensuring correct behaviour, or lack of parenting from a teaching them to care angle.

A small portion will be nasty for their lives, unless they develop the ability to mask

Of course 4 year olds can be nasty. Psychopaths were children once too. I know they reckon psychopathy can't be diagnosed in children but it's not something that can magically appear once over 18.

I teach good learning happens under specific conditions.

Shitty learning happens in shitty environments and positive learning happens in positive environments. So toxic environments promote toxic reactions and behaviours and healthy environments promote healthy learning of healthy behaviours. Obviously there are other genetic aspects to this whole picture too but in the main I think the parents have to work to create a healthy environment around the child to get the best outcomes.

It’s also not diagnosed in adults, ASPD is, for children the diagnostic pathway would be for conduct disorders.

I’ve worked with loads of kids but I think this question is difficult to answer. I think some kids lean more towards being aggressive and less empathetic, and others are naturally empathetic and caring from the start. But I don’t think every child who is naturally aggressive will be a nasty/violent bully. But if that child who is naturally more aggressive learns that violent attacks get attention from a normally distracted parent then it’s a bit of a no-win situation, isn’t it?

I knew a kid who was like this at four. He’s different at nine. I think he developed empathy.

I think the issue is that some parents can't discipline their kids. They make excuses which leads to the kids not accepting responsibility for their actions.

Yes. I know a child who was like this at aged 4. He's now 11 and a horrible little bully.

I do think, unfortunately, that four is old enough either for innate less than pleasant personality traits to have emerged or for bad parenting to have instilled some really awful characteristics and behaviours.

We went on holiday recently with a friend and her two kids. Her four year old boy was spiteful, spoilt, violent, rude and sly. I’ve never seen anything like it — it was way beyond “naughty”

It's an interesting one. DS now 8 has a friend who he's known since they were toddlers - family used to live in the house opposite us. New build estate and we moved at the same with boys the same age. He was awful, at any opportunity pushing, kicking, hitting my DS. They went to nursery together and my DS saw him as a friend. Things came to a head when I walked into a room when they were about 4 and this little boy was trying to strangle my son. Hands right around his throat. It was awful. I avoided all contact with the mum for a while after which was hard as we were friends. The situation resolved itself as they moved away but they're still at same school. Thankfully they've now grown apart with own friend groups but I foresee this child being an awful bully at high school.

I don’t think it works like that. If he is how he is because they are how they are, then it needs to begin with them changing how they are. And then working with their child to break behavioural patterns and change the child’s outlook. Not done overnight. You don’t just ‘parent them out of it.’ I don’t think gentle or strict is the way to go, but a complete overhaul on how you behave and how the home environment impacts the child.

I was horribly bullied the day I started primary school. Young kids can be vile.

I think so, theres a child in DD’s gymnastics class who targets children when instructors are not watching. He’s extremely calculated and almost did some serious harm to another boy at one point. DD was terrified and refused to go into the class, happily it became a bit of an opportunity to help her stand up for herself more.

It’s the calculated bit that gets me. The kids shove each other or get into scuffles usually because one has inadvertently bumped another or theres been some pushing in etc etc. Usually it’s a reaction to a perceived injustice. This one though waits for an opportunity to do something and then falls over and plays victim if he’s noticed or if a child retaliates. Tbh I find it a bit worrying, he manages to not do it when his mum is there so he has enough executive function to stop himself. Most of them you look at and think “you’ll grow out of it”, that boy though I’m not sure he will.