To think that Shakespeare is a little intense for Yr 7 English?

[mids2019]

My daughter is studying Romeo and Juliet for Yr 7 English. Am I being unreasonable that this play may have more impact at A level when pupils have greater critical analysis techniques and possibly a greater appreciation for English literature?

I think Shakepeare is a genius of English literature but the language is so dense and tied to contemporary Elizabethian society that I think a Yr 7 pupil could struggle and in some cases actually put pupils off a more gradual approach to literature appreciation.

I also find it difficult explaining to a 12 year old daughter how Juliet (13) is capable of making so such life changing choices such as marriage and ultimately suicide and with the perspective of 21st century society the play does seem remote in experience.

Is the bard best taught at a slightly older age?

You say you live near Stratford, and yes, tickets for the RSC aren't cheap - but children are half price and if you get a seat behind a pillar they're reasonably priced so, it can be affordable to go once a year or every other year. When I go with DD we don't take her friends, or anyone else in the family- it really would be too expensive. But seeing a Shakespeare play is completely different to reading a Shakespeare play. I left school not liking Shakespeare at all as we'd plodded through R&J for GCSE, but DD loves Shakespeare because it's been presented to here in a completely different way. She certainly doesn't read Shakespeare- she's dyslexic and doesn't read anything, but she does love Shakespeare.

I did read my DC the simple children's versions of main Shakespeare plays, which I think helped with knowing the story before watching the plays.

I'm not too far from Stratford, and hardly anyone I know goes to the RSC, but so what, I don't watch I'm a celebrity and everyone I know does. I do feel very privileged to live close enough to go for the evening.

DS did The tempest as a play in Y6. I wasn't familiar with the play and had not a clue what was going on, and had to get DS to explain it to me afterwards

Or rather because her parents don’t take her.

I’ve already suggested Baz Lurhman’s R+J and well as the Olivia Hussey film versions. Presumably her friends watch films?

There’s also a version with Douglas Booth but it’s not very good.

Your language is very...OTT and flowery - is this how you talk in real life, OP?

If my parents asked me if I was "a fan of the bard" there is no way I'd be able to keep a straight face, and I'm in my thirties!

And if she isn’t a fan that’s fine. Nobody can be a fan of every author at the end of the day. That doesn’t mean she can’t engage with the text and learn a lot from it.

but what she gets from reading it as an 11 year old will be different to what an adult takes from it

You should read Adrian Mole, OP. It is very 80s but very funny. A lot of the humour comes from Adrian’s laments that he is an Intellectual in a cultural wasteland in the Midlands with philistine parents. Adrian would unironically refer to Shakespeare as ‘the bard’.

What do you mean by 'treated with care?' Juliet kills herself. It's fiction. I can't imagine any normal year 7 being driven towards suicide on the basis of reading Romeo and Juliet.

For any fans of Shakespeare I’d recommend the comedy series Upstart Crow. It’s hilarious and based on his life. I think it’s still on BBC iplayer.

I think the issue here is with engagement. The thread has many contributors who are rightly passionate about Shakespeare and yes I understand that I like Shakespeare but it certainly puts me in a minority where I live.

I'm not specifically passionate about Shakespeare and I teach modern languages, not English (so I do teach literature at A Level).

I just wonder why you seem to think we should dumb down the curriculum for fear of a lack of engagement. Lots of kids don't automatically engage with lots of school stuff. That doesn't mean they shouldn't be taught it.

My very bright, keen reader 14yo ds is currently doing poetry in English. He absolutely loathes it with every fibre of his being, as I'm sure quite a few of them do. Does that mean schools should just all give up teaching any poetry? Nope!

A broad education is an opportunity to engage with lots of things, some of them out of your comfort zone, and some which will never be of any direct, concrete use to you. You don't get the chance to learn what you enjoy and value unless you've been exposed to it.

@Fairislefandango

Is it really diving down though? I am suggesting that Shakespeare is possibly an option for GCSE and A level and that more modern classics are taught in the earlier years such as year 7. The children at that age would find the material more accessible though of course substantial e.g. Treasure Island of 1984.

I was talking to some colleagues at work today and we were sharing stories about how we had endured Shakespeare at school and managed to get through exams with a combination of spark notes and cunning plagiarism; I think we are missing something if that is the general attitude to literature.

As said before appreciation of Shakespeare does take an element of maturity which may not there at Year 7, teen suicide in Romeo and Juliet, depression, madness and suicide in Hamlet, overarching ambition in Macbeth, obsessive jealousy in Othello etc.

I am certainly not saying children should be shielded from these themes but can't they just be introduced a little later?

The thing that I find offputting is when children feel they are unintelligent if they really do not get Shakespeare especially as the content is examinable. A rejection of Shakepeare does not mean a child is unintelligent; Shakespeare isn't the be all and and end all of English literature. If a child reads a sufficiently diverse range of material Shakepeare can be out to one side without the child being a cultural philistine.

It would be good if schools are going to devote a great deal.of time to Shakepeare that they promote and pay for children to see a performance because at the end of the day Shakespeare's works are play scripts that are meant to be acted.

dumbing not diving!

Not sure if this has been mentioned upthread but Shakespeare is about performance. Reading it is fine but reading it aloud really helps with understanding. Performing it is even better.

There are so many nuanced layers in Shakespeare that of course no-one would expect a year 7 student to grasp them all. That’s partly the point, that audiences of all ages will take and understand different things from the text at different times and from different performances of the same play. That understanding changes and develops over time but can certainly begin at your DC’s age.

Ha! My post took so long to load that I see that we’re in agreement about Shakespeare needing to be performed @mids2019 !

@BlessMyCottonSocks and

I agree but schools should find this. With a cost of living crisis not many parents may be willing to take their children to see a live performance and I think this could limit students. There are TV versions e.g. Claire Danes and Di Caprio in Romeo and Juliet but do they have the same impact?

I think Shakespeare performance brings in a few questions about ensuring a diverse cast (addressed through the last 3 decades) and their is the unfortunate (underserved) faint of elitism with live Shakepeare. A lot of performance is done with RP English and I think directors need to be creative to allow regional accents to somehow get through in Shakespeare which is a bit of a challenge.

Ok, a bit "hors propos" so this song is in French - it's a modern R&J - I was way past year 7 when the song came out so it didn't come up at school. But a good teacher I think can teach classics at any age, it doesn't mean it can't be done again at a later date, it doesn't mean at the end of year seven the kids will be classicists - it does mean they'll have had a first approach.

We did however study Dangerous Liaisons when we were 13 - our teacher in the backend of rural France had us translate in all into text messages language as a term project, we saw the films. We chose our favorite letters. She had us write our own letters. She asked and taught us about censorship, about changing morals. About what sort of love society accepts and refuses. About sex and secrecy and shame. We spend the whole year on it - from Baudelaire and les fleurs du mal and invitation au voyage to Rimbaud's and Verlaine's Love story to Rilke and his letters, to Eluard and his love poems.

She used to say that if one day we read certain poems and "felt" them differently - then we'd know we were in love.

It was an amazing year - even though I went on the study maths - I'll never forget that year and the passion it gave us all.

She used to encourage us to write and borrow by quoting Montaigne "Les abeilles pillotent deçà delà les fleurs ; mais elles en font après le miel, qui est tout leur" - The bees take from the flowers - here and there- but make the honey which is theirs only.

Many thought that Dangerous Liaisons was so inappropriate for 13/14 years olds but she made it work.

That was long - but writing it was nice memories for me.

This is the modern R&J song - Google translate can help I think.

Roméo habite au rez-de-chaussée du bâtiment trois
Juliette dans l'immeuble d'en face au dernier étage
Ils ont 16 ans tous les 2 et chaque jour quand ils se voient
Grandit dans leur regard une envie d'partage
C'est au premier rendez-vous qu'ils franchissent le pas
Sous un triste ciel d'automne où il pleut sur leurs corps
Ils s'embrassent comme des fous sans peur du vent et du froid
Car l'amour a ses saisons que la raison ignore
Roméo kiffe Juliette et Juliette kiffe Roméo
Et si l'ciel n'est pas clément, tant pis pour la météo
Un amour dans l'orage, celui des dieux, celui des hommes
Un amour, du courage et deux enfants hors des normes
Juliette et Roméo se voient souvent en cachette
Ce n'est pas qu'autour d'eux les gens pourraient se moquer
C'est qu'le père de Juliette a une kippa sur la tête
Et celui d'Roméo va tous les jours à la mosquée
Alors ils mentent à leurs familles, ils s'organisent comme des pros
S'il n'y a pas d'lieux pour leur amour, ils se fabriquent un décor
Ils s'aiment au cinéma, chez des amis, dans l'métro
Car l'amour a ses maisons que les darons ignorent
Roméo kiffe Juliette et Juliette kiffe Roméo
Et si l'ciel n'est pas clément, tant pis pour la météo
Un amour dans l'orage, celui des dieux, celui des hommes
Un amour, du courage et deux enfants hors des normes
Le père de Roméo est vénèr, il a des soupçons
"La famille de Juliette est juive, tu ne dois pas t'approcher d'elle"
Mais Roméo argumente et résiste au coup de pression
"On s'en fout papa qu'elle soit juive, regarde comme elle est belle"
Alors l'amour reste clandé' dès qu'le père tourne le dos
Il lui fait vivre la grande vie avec les moyens du bord
Pour elle c'est sandwich au grec et cheese au McDo
Car l'amour a ses liaisons que les biftons ignorent
Roméo kiffe Juliette et Juliette kiffe Roméo
Et si l'ciel n'est pas clément, tant pis pour la météo
Un amour dans l'orage, celui des dieux, celui des hommes
Un amour, du courage et deux enfants hors des normes
Mais l'histoire se complique quand le père de Juliette tombe sur des messages qu'il n'aurait pas dû lire
Un texto sur l'i-phone et un chat Internet, la sanction est tombée, elle ne peut plus sortir
Roméo galère dans le hall du bâtiment trois
Malgré son pote Mercutio, sa joie s'évapore
Sa princesse est tout prêt mais retenue sous son toit
Car l'amour a ses prisons que la raison déshonore
Mais Juliette et Roméo changent l'histoire et se tirent
À croire qu'ils s'aiment plus à la vie qu'à la mort
Pas de fiole de cyanure, n'en déplaise à Shakespeare
Car l'amour a ses horizons que les poisons ignorent
Roméo kiffe Juliette et Juliette kiffe Roméo
Et si l'ciel n'est pas clément, tant pis pour la météo
Un amour dans l'orage celui des dieus, celui des hommes
Un amour, du courage et deux enfants hors des normes

And OP, "be all and end all" that you used is a phrase Shakespeare originated.

It's great for students to see the effect this one (middle class, non-university educated) playwright had on a language even 500 years later.

Bloody hell, OP - have you read 1984?

I wouldn’t be reading that with yr7! Extracts maybe. But not the whole thing. Yikes.

Actually, I meant that the students should perform it, in class. Sections only of course, not the whole thing, and that students should read the text aloud. It leads to better understanding and stops engaging with the text becoming the feat of endurance that it became for you.

I disagree about the school funding cultural trips, they are part of a broad educational experience which should be encouraged. However, you need clearly think that reading Shakespeare is a waste of time and are trying to find reasons to dismiss it.

@BlessMyCottonSocks

It's not about banning Shakepeare but thinking about when and how it is introduced into the curriculum. There are other classic texts that can be substituted if there is flexibility. I think we try and get away from experience of literature being a marmite experience where there are those that are impassioned and those where Shakepeare is looked on as an irrelevance (not my opinion but it does exist).

Also the fact that there are exams set on Shakepeare leads to students looking on anything Shakepeare in terms of academic merit rather than simply taking joy in the text and I think that is important

I agree with performance being key but this is the overlap with drama I think some schools struggle with. For instance my daughter reads Shakepeare in class but in drama club they don't consider his plays as they are deemed to difficult.

I've taken my children to watch Shakespeare since they were toddlers and right up through their teams and they've gained from it at their level of understanding and experience.

A group does two moving plays in local parks each year. They've very entertaining and a great way of introducing Shakespeare. For me, it's how Shakespeare should be, not pulling it apart at a young age.

@burgledinParis

It sounds like you had a fantastic year!

One point from your post: you mention fantastic teachers but in my general experience not everyone is fantastic (not with classic verse anyway). Possibly where you do get disengagement this affects teacher morale and their attitude to teaching?

In an educational environment where the government wants to prioritise vocational training how does literature/art fit in?

My daughter wants to become an actor and we have told her it is an intensely competitive field but Shakespearean performance may feature if she wants to pursue that career. (acting as a motivation to concentrate a bit more?)

How do you feel social class, parental interest and academic ability feature in a pupils desire to read (and enjoy) classic literature? I think they do have an impact.

@Buzzinwithbez

Sounds great!

However a wealthy town, Stratford upon Avon, near me seems to put on quite a few Shakespeare plays. Coventry and north Warwickshire in general (more deprived) offer very little

If we are going to make Shakepeare more accessible given that his plays are taught universally in the UK we need to ensure children have equal access to performance. That is why I think schools really should be taking kids out to see the plays not just teaching in class

Stratford on Avon is the birthplace of Shakespeare and home of the Royal Shakespeare company hence the focus there, nothing to do with it being a wealthy town. There’s a huge tourist industry generated off the back of it as well.

Shakespeare is performed throughout the country at a variety of venues throughout the year and is very accessible to those who are interested. Everything from the RSC to puppet theatre. Shakespeare in the park (ie at open air venues in the summer) is particularly popular. It’s actually sometimes harder to see other more contemporary plays as they often have limited runs in a more limited range of venues.

I live nearby.

In addition to the world class centre of Shakespeare performance and scholarship in Stratford, there is plenty of Shakespeare in the region.

This year the Belgrade theatre in Coventry hosted the Shakespeare Schools Festival, plus updated / revised productions of Hamlet and Othello. Over the summer there were open-air Shakespeare productions at the FarGo village in town. The Warwick Arts Centre (which is actually in Cov) screens NT Live productions, including Othello and Romeo and Juliet.

This is in the North East in a deprived area. The plays after performed in two local parks, usually a comedy and a tragedy/ more historical one. People can give a donation of they wish. The performances move around the park from scene to scene, so it keeps it interesting for the children.
It's about as accessible as it can possibly be.

R&J is about as basic as Shakespeare gets both in language and themes - and very relatable to any 12 year old that has seen an episode of any modern day soap. Young couple from warring families fall in love, learn they cannot be together without pissing off their relatives and can see no way out. It all turns to shit. At 12, most kids are more than ready for this play, and in many cases, it ignites a passion for literature because of its relatability. See also Much Ado About Nothing.

By contrast, Hamlet deals with pretty complex themes such as mental illness and revenge, which is more appropriate for an older age group.

There's a Shakespeare play for everyone at y7 and beyond. That's the attraction.