Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Keir Starmer loves strivers part 2.

74 replies

jgw1 · 02/12/2022 22:33

The old thread is filling up rather fast, so in case anyone wants to continue chasing themselves round in circles here is a new one.

OP posts:
pointythings · 03/12/2022 10:09

I think it was @MarshaBradyo who mentioned SMEs and their owners in the previous thread, as compared to the real 'fat cats' who are making Monopoly money salaries. I have some sympathy with that view, which is why I would be in favour of a maximume pay multiple in terms of what the highest earner in a company can earn vs the lowest earner. No doubt it would cause all kinds of complications, but I cannot get my head around people who earn more than a normal person could spend in a lifetime thinking that this is OK when people who are working full time can't put food on the table or have their heating on. Nobody 'works hard enough' to 'deserve' that kind of remuneration. It just isn't necessary.

AhNowTed · 03/12/2022 10:14

@pointythings

And we're subsidising some of these fat cats.

Workers on low pay and zero hours contracts needing to have their wages topped up by benefits.

So not only is Amazon paying feck all tax, we're subsidising their workforce.

It's obscene.

Rollin · 03/12/2022 10:17

‘Well you can but choose other people who want to reply, that was my quote and I’m not up for another thread of the same’

er, you’re wiring on a public domain, you don’t really get to decide whether or not someone quotes you or replies to some thing you’ve said!

jgw1 · 03/12/2022 10:19

MarshaBradyo · 03/12/2022 10:06

I only commented due to vague attack from pp to check who it was but quoting someone is generally asking for a response and as I don’t want to continue quote others who do want to.

Easy!

I’m not shutting down discussion go for it a simple request to avoid dragging quotes across as I’m out.

Enjoy

@MarshaBradyo have a lovely day

OP posts:
Rollin · 03/12/2022 10:22

@MarshaBradyo is long gone. Prob for the best.

jgw1 · 03/12/2022 10:24

Rollin · 03/12/2022 10:22

@MarshaBradyo is long gone. Prob for the best.

That's a shame, I alwys enjoy their company.

OP posts:
pointythings · 03/12/2022 10:24

@AhNowTed it's the same old lazy argument that they always trot out: The rich must be incentivised by giving them more and more money. The poor on the other hand must be incentivised by taking money away from them. Hence tax rises for private schools = evil, but paramedics, nurses, teachers etc. seeing their wages eroded by inflation yeat on year = absolutely fine.

AhNowTed · 03/12/2022 10:26

pointythings · 03/12/2022 10:24

@AhNowTed it's the same old lazy argument that they always trot out: The rich must be incentivised by giving them more and more money. The poor on the other hand must be incentivised by taking money away from them. Hence tax rises for private schools = evil, but paramedics, nurses, teachers etc. seeing their wages eroded by inflation yeat on year = absolutely fine.

Or put another way.

Benefits for the rich = trickle down economics

Benefits for the poor = socialism gone mad

Rollin · 03/12/2022 10:27

It’s a popular plan though, even a lot of Tories can see it’s not fair that these schools have charitable status.

MarshaBradyo · 03/12/2022 10:28

jgw1 · 03/12/2022 10:19

@MarshaBradyo have a lovely day

Well I preferred this nice response to sarcastic one.

But thanks I will. You too.

CaronPoivre · 03/12/2022 10:28

QueenOfHiraeth · 03/12/2022 00:26

I can't read the first thread as it keeps crashing but, at the risk of barging in and repeating something already discussed, the private education thing seems one of those issues where the obvious moral choice has more complications behind it.
I agree in principle with taxing private schools but there seems to be no understanding of the huge variation in standard in state schools between areas which leaves some people with few options if they want their children to succeed. (I declare an interest here as my children went to private school because the standards at local schools were awful).

If you compare educational attainment between Blackpool and London the difference is appalling. We already face the fact in the North that all our talented youngsters have to leave the area for decent work prospects and failing to give them a decent education just condemns them to a lesser future

You’re right but it’s simply not all down to schools. Many schools have exceptional teachers and leaders working in very difficult settings. Ryde Academy is case in point. Since being taken over by Enterprise trust and having appointed an exceptional leader in 2015 it has shown rapid progress. It’s results have improved and it’s gone from inadequate to good. The head was a TV star when she was the head in the Educating Cardiff series and has taken that talent to Ryde. Many schools in challenging circumstances cannot recruit strong, transformative leaders. Who wants to live and work in Blackpool or Grimsby when you can live in Keswick or Harrogate for the same package?

There has long been neglect and dereliction of many seaside towns. Places like Margate, Great Yarmouth and Hastings used to accommodate children’s homes, care leavers, refugees, people with learning disabilities, drug addicts and ex prisoners because they have large, cheap properties suitable for multiple occupancy. The austerity measures mean parents (and others) already struggling have lost their support services. Shops have shut, libraries and family centres closed.

The expectations on schools has increased exponentially. We want them to teach everything and every child with lessened resources. We expect them to give medicines, provide forgotten lunches, change incontinent children, be mindful of volatile family situations, teach children with sixteen or more first languages, manage friendships and sort out squabbling. Clearly in poorer communities the impact of austerity is greater, the educational opportunities reduced and need to focus on getting children into school and learning is almost insurmountable . Middle class parents can offer funds to schools via fetes, raffles, sweatshirt sales, voluntary donations, paying for exciting school trips and extracurricular activities. Poorer schools can only dream of the majority of parents sending in £100 each term or buying a book for the new library.

What any government needs to do is address poverty. Sadly, the current government wants to put more families (and others) into poverty. Their votes are not generally from the poor - apart from the Brexit vote won by projecting immigrants as being to blame for poverty and failing services.

Part of addressing poverty is to level the playing field. If Ryde Academy wasn’t indirectly subsidising Ryde School, was getting the support of more middle class parents, was getting those parental donations, behaviours and expectations then one can only imagine how well they would serve all our children.

LadyWithLapdog · 03/12/2022 10:30

Good analysis @CaronPoivre

Alexandra2001 · 03/12/2022 10:35

Rollin · 03/12/2022 10:17

‘Well you can but choose other people who want to reply, that was my quote and I’m not up for another thread of the same’

er, you’re wiring on a public domain, you don’t really get to decide whether or not someone quotes you or replies to some thing you’ve said!

I think you will find thats exactly what they demands.

Not the only one who has fallen foul of their dictates either.

Its not the right wing stuff, plenty have differing pov's and that good... its the lack of basic knowledge but spouted as fact... does not like challenge....

so can repeatedly clash with Clav but at least fairly consistence and doesn't come out with "i'm not going to engage with you"

Its really not how a forum works.

AhNowTed · 03/12/2022 10:35

Excellent post @CaronPoivre

CaronPoivre · 03/12/2022 10:37

pointythings · 03/12/2022 10:09

I think it was @MarshaBradyo who mentioned SMEs and their owners in the previous thread, as compared to the real 'fat cats' who are making Monopoly money salaries. I have some sympathy with that view, which is why I would be in favour of a maximume pay multiple in terms of what the highest earner in a company can earn vs the lowest earner. No doubt it would cause all kinds of complications, but I cannot get my head around people who earn more than a normal person could spend in a lifetime thinking that this is OK when people who are working full time can't put food on the table or have their heating on. Nobody 'works hard enough' to 'deserve' that kind of remuneration. It just isn't necessary.

I have a SME as a side line to my own substantive employment. I can’t imagine not paying my associates/staff properly and that is factored into costs when putting tenders in. Even allowing for that I get a good amount into the business so I’m not paying people well at the expense of the taxpayer or to my detriment. In fairness, I’m not taking home over a million a year from it, but it will build a very nice addition to my retirement nest egg. To expect the taxpayer to subsidise my business through universal credit would be immoral.

Even better I can spend some of it as expenses to offset against profit. My companies house returns look like I’m only just breaking even. I’d increase corporation tax and close some loopholes that allow me to magic profits away, but nobody is going to do that.

pointythings · 03/12/2022 10:39

@CaronPoivre that's the thing - if everyone decided that it wasn't acceptable to have the levels of poverty that we do in the UK, we could sort it out. But for every ethical enterprise like yours, there are too many that don't have those ethics.

jgw1 · 03/12/2022 10:42

MarshaBradyo · 03/12/2022 10:28

Well I preferred this nice response to sarcastic one.

But thanks I will. You too.

How was your day @MarshaBradyo ?

OP posts:
CaronPoivre · 03/12/2022 10:46

pointythings · 03/12/2022 10:39

@CaronPoivre that's the thing - if everyone decided that it wasn't acceptable to have the levels of poverty that we do in the UK, we could sort it out. But for every ethical enterprise like yours, there are too many that don't have those ethics.

Yes absolutely and it should be stopped. Shocking that businesses can line their pockets and leave people in poverty. It also hides unemployment figures by showing people as employed when what their getting is a few hours at minimum wage. That not employment- it’s exploitation.

We’ll all have to pay more to allow people the dignity of a living wage but there would be significant benefits for us all too. They are less obvious than faux employment figures so not mentioned by the media. People generally don’t want to pay more - it’s easier to blame immigrants, laziness and poor budgeting skills than the government they voted for.

MarshaBradyo · 03/12/2022 10:53

jgw1 · 03/12/2022 10:42

How was your day @MarshaBradyo ?

Can you stop tagging me. Badgering people when they have said they don’t want to engage isn’t great.

jgw1 · 03/12/2022 10:55

MarshaBradyo · 03/12/2022 10:53

Can you stop tagging me. Badgering people when they have said they don’t want to engage isn’t great.

Apologies.

OP posts:
Rollin · 03/12/2022 11:31

@MarshaBradyo There is a flouncers corner... or just don't comment on a thread. That's what I do when I genuinely don't want to, well, comment on a thread.
It's a great system!

@CaronPoivre Totally agree. We expect so much of our schools, without them getting the support and money they need.
Can't wait until the Tories are gone. You can't expect politicians who don't use state schools to care about them, or to care about the NHS when they go private, or to understand what it's like to work fulltime and still struggle to pay the bills when they live off inherited wealth.
Well, you can expect, I suppose. It would be nice to have public servants who actually care about serving the public rather than gaining more wealth, power, influence and titles for themselves and their mates but unfortunately the bunch of mostly PRIVATELY educated toffs in charge just don't.

Alexandra2001 · 03/12/2022 13:23

@Rollin

Yes the funding of state schools is appalling.. got some very real teacher shortages down here.. essential workers just cannot buy a house or even afford rent.

In our village a 33 house development only given if 15 were "affordable" is being being appealed, the dev now wants no affordable's so each house will now be around 600k.....

He'll win of course, cornwall council/govt are only interested in house build numbers to reach their targets.

...and of course... no extra funding for schools, i guess many who buy these properties will put their kids in Plymouth and Kelly College's

DuncinToffee · 03/12/2022 14:19

twitter.com/RedfieldWilton/status/1599030811172519936?t=5zzNQzgy9Ng7BpKMGMIRtA&s=19

Do Britons support or oppose Labour’s plan to remove the charitable status from private schools? (30 November)

Support 62%
Neither 18%
Oppose 13%
Don't know 7%

Only 22% of 2019 Conservative voters OPPOSE Labour's plan.

Rollin · 03/12/2022 15:12

‘Only 22% of 2019 Conservative voters OPPOSE Labour's plan.’

seems like they’re all on here!

QueenOfHiraeth · 04/12/2022 00:02

@CaronPoivre I agree with everything you said about seaside towns and that is exactly what Blackpool is facing but, given that it would take quite some time to improve the schools even if middle class parents helped with funding them and fighting for them, I don't think any parent would choose to put their child in there if they had an alternative. I understand all the arguments against private education but there was no way I was going to compromise my DCs futures for them and suspect many others would feel the same.

When DCs went to university, most of their friends there were from more affluent areas and had benefited from good state education. Ironically poorer areas are further impoverished by disposable income spent on education rather than in other local businesses and facilities.
Just as people claim the Tories don't support state education as they don't use it themselves, I suspect that the people pushing this initiative have no experience of being in areas with very poor state options